Is there anything Mab can't command Harry to do? (Getting out of the WK idea.)

[Mira]

Harry put Mab in her place in Cold Days by telling her that if she forced him, he would obey her.  He stated that he would do exactly what she ordered and not one iota more.  It turns out she didn't like this idea.  Mab would be costing herself and ally in favor of just another servant.

She could make him do anything, physically.  The question is whether she is willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

Yes, because she can force him to do as she orders him to do.. However that would get her the same kind of crappy knight she's had for the last thousand years or so...  That isn't what she wants.

[nadia.skylark]

I don't think she can command Harry to use wizard magic.  I believe she can control his physical body, and use of Winter ice magic.  Wizard magic requires real belief to do.  So Harry would become no different than any other Winter Knight, losing his value to Mab.

This makes a lot of sense.

There could be one thing that gives Harry more free will.  The Fallen's words that lead to Harry becoming the Winter Knight, and having Kincaid shoot him, caused his lack of free will.  To balance the scales, Uriel gave his free will back.  Harry, unlike other Winter Knights may have a form of angelic protection from Mab's total control over him.  But I'm not sure.  Even Harry admitted that Mab could make him a meat puppet but it would make him virtually useless to her.

I'm not sure...I think what Uriel did was tell Harry a bit of "cosmic" level truth, rather than giving him any particular power. Knowing he has free will will certainly help him keep it, but I think it's sort of like Lea's magic feather trick.

I was talking about a quote where Jim was talking about the third favor ending his obligation to Mab.

Do you think you could dig up the quote/source? I've never seen this one.

[Bad Alias]

Do you think you could dig up the quote/source? I've never seen this one.

No. I'm not very good at finding WoJ. Also, I might be remembering something that didn't happen. If you want a quote from a book, I'm usually pretty good at finding that.

[Snark Knight]

I'm not actually sure Mab agreed to the condition not to order him to kill any loved ones. She said the Knight's job is to kill who he's told to kill, and then they moved on to discussing other clauses without actually resolving that disagreement. I figure she just knows giving that order would be an immediate path into him turning into a deliberately useless mediocre knight, so she wouldn't go there unless she absolutely had to (e.g. if someone Harry cared about was Nemfected).

As for his paralysis returning when he disregarded winter law, that doesn't necessarily mean she welched on the promise to outright fix him. Even if she did grant him a 100% good-as-new, lasting fix, she also didn't promise not to paralyze him again later as a means of discipline.

[nadia.skylark]

As for his paralysis returning when he disregarded winter law, that doesn't necessarily mean she welched on the promise to outright fix him. Even if she did grant him a 100% good-as-new, lasting fix, she also didn't promise not to paralyze him again later as a means of discipline.

Or make him think that he was paralyzed when he wasn't.

[morriswalters]

You may want to think of the mantle as a supernatural exoskeleton.  She didn't fix his back.  Given sufficient time his back will heal itself.  All the better to keep Harry in line.

[peregrine]

Maybe.  But then, a crutch was not what was agreed upon.  A fix was what was agreed upon.

[morriswalters]

“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”

She did precisely what she promised.  The mantle to all intents and purposes made him healthy.  It just didn't heal his back.  Typical Mab.

[Mira]

She did precisely what she promised.  The mantle to all intents and purposes made him healthy.  It just didn't heal his back.  Typical Mab.

  I don't think that is so clear..   Remember what Eb told Harry in Changes,  it could well be that Mab did heal Harry's back, that was the bargain... However that doesn't exclude her from breaking it again when she wishes or making Harry believe that she did, she never promised that she wouldn't...  In every Fae bargain there are loop holes.

[Bad Alias]

Someone asked Jim about how the mantle goes away when he has iron in him and about that scene where he breaks Winter Law. The question was something like, isn't that a contradiction. Jim replied with something like, it seems that way; doesn't it. I took it to mean that it was meant to look that way but wasn't. Intentionally ambiguous. I don't think that answers the question, but I think we should keep it in mind during the "is his back broken" debate.

I personally am on the "not broken" side.

[Avernite]

Someone asked Jim about how the mantle goes away when he has iron in him and about that scene where he breaks Winter Law. The question was something like, isn't that a contradiction. Jim replied with something like, it seems that way; doesn't it. I took it to mean that it was meant to look that way but wasn't. Intentionally ambiguous. I don't think that answers the question, but I think we should keep it in mind during the "is his back broken" debate.

I personally am on the "not broken" side.

I agree there; apart from Mab not welching on a specific agreement to heal Harry, the iron argument is even stronger to me - there can't be an ongoing crutch applied because iron would destroy any Mab-made crutch (even if temporarily), and it doesn't show.

And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.

[nadia.skylark]

And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.

Very true. On a related note, does anyone have any theories for why Mab hasn't given Harry a way to know what Winter Law is before he breaks it?

[Mira]

I agree there; apart from Mab not welching on a specific agreement to heal Harry, the iron argument is even stronger to me - there can't be an ongoing crutch applied because iron would destroy any Mab-made crutch (even if temporarily), and it doesn't show.

And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.

No, she isn't welching,  she agreed to heal him, and she did... However she didnt't agree to not break it again if she is displeased with him.... Nor did she agree to not make him think she broke it again...  That's why one shouldn't bargain with the Fae..

[Bad Alias]

Very true. On a related note, does anyone have any theories for why Mab hasn't given Harry a way to know what Winter Law is before he breaks it?

Someone mentioned that Winter Law may have a way for Harry to get out of the mantel. He didn't agree to a term of service, so, in theory, the two or three years he's been the Winter Knight may have completely satisfied his end of the deal. Also, knowing all the rules could make it a lot easier for Harry to not do what Mab wants Harry to do.

[morriswalters]

The effects of iron on the Mantle and the effects of breaking Winter Law are distinct and different.  And Harry isn't surprised in Cold Days that his legs cease to work when he attempts to break Winter Law..  Remember that the only weasel in the room is Harry.  Mab has been true to her word.  I read his experience as a warning to Harry about the trying to weasel out yet again. Possibly the leg repair is an enchantment separate from the Mantle.