Can Hellfire be used without a Coin?

[groinkick]

I was going over the other topic and it got me thinking about the use of hellfire.  In the Dresdenverse it's reasonable to assume that hell is just another part of the NeverNever the same as Hades.  It's also likely that Harry was channeling energy from hell to create the fire.  He did this with Lash's help.  However could a wizard tap into this energy without a Coin though?  Or is it locked away from anyone using it that isn't allowed access? 

Or is the theory all wrong?  Could the hellfire just be the Fallen allowing Harry to tap into their power much like he's able to tap into his own Soul for soulfire?  Jim said that angel's are all soul basically so it could be that the Fallen's hellfire is just energy from a Fallen's life force or whatever they are.

Or is Hellfire just Soulfire that has been twisted by the Fallen which is why to balance the scales Uriel gave Harry Soulfire?


Anyways I was thinking that in a desperate situation someone like Harry could call upon hellfire so he can do serious damage without burning off his own soul.

[nadia.skylark]

In the Dresdenverse it's reasonable to assume that hell is just another part of the NeverNever the same as Hades.  It's also likely that Harry was channeling energy from hell to create the fire.  He did this with Lash's help.  However could a wizard tap into this energy without a Coin though?  Or is it locked away from anyone using it that isn't allowed access?

This is a really cool concept! The idea of a piece of the Nevernever having magic like a ley line that people can draw on is really facinating.

Or is the theory all wrong?  Could the hellfire just be the Fallen allowing Harry to tap into their power much like he's able to tap into his own Soul for soulfire?  Jim said that angel's are all soul basically so it could be that the Fallen's hellfire is just energy from a Fallen's life force or whatever they are.

On the other hand, I think this is actually the truth. I know there's a WoJ that hellfire and soulfire are two sides of the same coin, and which one an angel uses is determined by what kind of angel they are.

Maybe it could be both? The Fallen could be boosting their own ability by drawing on the power of the land they settled in (like non-Fallen angels can probably draw on God's power for some things). Maybe this is why use of hellfire smells like brimstone.

[Mr. Death]

Pretty sure it's explicit WOJ that everywhere exists somewhere in the Nevernever, including Hell.

And I see no reason the coins would be the only way for someone to access Hellfire. We already know that, for instance, Lucifer can provide it. It stands to reason that other demons and fallen angels not confined to coins could give someone access, for a price.

[Bad Alias]

I'm of the opinion that Hellfire and Soulfire are both "soul energy." So they have to come from a soul. That could be an angel's or a mortal's. So, in theory, Harry could use Hellfire.

I know there's a WoJ that hellfire and soulfire are two sides of the same coin, and which one an angel uses is determined by what kind of angel they are.

I recall this WoJ, and it leads me to think that one is inherently good and one inherently evil.

[Talby16]

I think of all the examples of a mortal bartering with a greater authority/power/creature/etc for access to greater power. We have already seen Harry summon a demon a make a deal for information. I see no reason why a mortal wizard couldn't summon a demon or other creature with access and make a deal for access to Hellfire absent the coins.

[exartiem]

I'm of the opinion that Hellfire and Soulfire are both "soul energy." So they have to come from a soul. That could be an angel's or a mortal's. So, in theory, Harry could use Hellfire.

I agree.  I see it more like the difference between the Dark Side of the Force and the light.  It is the same energy, the difference is the intent or emotional state of the user.  Same with black magic, the mindset decides whether it is good or evil.

[nadia.skylark]

I recall this WoJ, and it leads me to think that one is inherently good and one inherently evil.

Well...one is inherently creative and one is inherently destructive, which I suppose corresponds roughly to "good" and "evil" for angels. Humans...not so much.

It would be really cool if Harry could use both soulfire and hellfire because his nature is unfixed and is inherently conflicted (which is the reason for hexing).

[Yuillegan]

The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.

Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.

Bit of a cop out, especially considering the opposite side seem to get an actual power up (e.g. Fix gets fire magic, where previously he couldn't use fire magic. Also when Harry uses Soulfire in more complex ways it really boosts the efficiency of his spells and achieves much more exceptional results). Seems like Jim did a retcon of his previous ideas for one reason or another...

Exartiem - I don't think that is true exactly. Dark magic in the Dresden Files seems to have an inherently "evil" quality beyond the intention or mindset of the user. If that were not the case, as you say, then anyone with a complex moral compass could avoid the adverse affects the dark magic has on users. Bear in mind most people do not think of themselves or their actions as "evil" even if the majority thinks they are. In the Dresden Universe there does seem to be an absolute moral authority defining "good" and "evil" regardless on how one might think about the moral quality of an action.

[Bad Alias]

Jim has said intent matters, but results matter way more. I disagree quite a bit with this worldview, but I'm not in charge of the Dresdenverse. Magic resulting in mortal death is black magic that taints the wizard. Even if its a freak accident or self defense. I think that's silly. People would avoid using magic. Harry's candle lighting spell risks costing him his very soul if the candles had ever caught his boarding house on fire.

If using hellfire makes an angel into a demon, it can't be good. And Uriel causes destruction, like killing all the first born of Egypt, without using hellfire, so it isn't as simple as creation/destruction.

I agree that the soft peddling of power ups is annoying. In Summer Knight, the Knights were so powerful that Bob said something to the effect of turning the city block where they were was the most likely way to kill them. In Cold Days, Harry and Fix are doing physical feats no real human has ever been known to do. People have mentioned it here before. I think Fix shatters the running long jump record. From a stand still.

[morriswalters]

I suspect that Hellfire is a property of Lucifer, a corruption of soulfire, and that if you use it, you get it as a boon from him.  By invitation only.

“Insufferable, arrogant little monkey,” Namshiel hissed. “Playing with the fires of creation. Binding your soul to it, as if you were one of us. How dare you so presume. How dare you wield soulfire against me. I, who was there when your pathetic kind was hewn from the muck.”

I will go one step further and suggest that Namshiel couldn't use  all the power actually available to the Fallen, if the Fallen were released from the coin.  The power of the fallen resembles the mantles, in that the more you use it the deeper into it you go.  The Fallen are most powerful in their alternate forms as the host gives up more of their identity.  This plays into how Jim Butcher treats the Winter Mantle.  In the battle on Demonreach Harry is fighting  the tendency to draw too much power from the mantle at the expense of his control of it.  Butters is only half right about the mantle. 

[Avernite]

The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.

Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.

To be honest, I just took these to be delusion. Hellfire made Harry's magic hit harder, and the Winter Mantle really DOES make Harry stronger.

Butters just doesn't really believe it, and his denigration of the Winter Mantle helps Harry feel more like a dummy being abused by Mab and his own bad choices, which is all but a hobby of his. So Harry tries to believe it too, and as a result thinks Hannah is also duped.

I mean, Harry ran on super-slippery ice, and jumped, and whatnot. He did things that are normally physically impossible... and all without digging very deep into his Mantle, after about 1 year of practice. Imagine a Knight none too worried about his soul pushing the Mantle to its limits for a decade.

[segaily]

To be honest, I just took these to be delusion. Hellfire made Harry's magic hit harder, and the Winter Mantle really DOES make Harry stronger.

Butters just doesn't really believe it, and his denigration of the Winter Mantle helps Harry feel more like a dummy being abused by Mab and his own bad choices, which is all but a hobby of his. So Harry tries to believe it too, and as a result thinks Hannah is also duped.

I mean, Harry ran on super-slippery ice, and jumped, and whatnot. He did things that are normally physically impossible... and all without digging very deep into his Mantle, after about 1 year of practice. Imagine a Knight none too worried about his soul pushing the Mantle to its limits for a decade.

I have always felt this way too.  While the mantle might not do much if anything to protect Harry from injury it clearly does give some boosts.   Hard to say how much is just belief and how much is real. I think Butters is right in that Harry needs to be very careful to not hurt himself but that does not mean Harry is getting nothing from the mantle.  Butter's does not trust it so he thinks the worst instead of thinking he could be right about it even while it does give some sort of a boost. 

[Mr. Death]

I have always felt this way too.  While the mantle might not do much if anything to protect Harry from injury it clearly does give some boosts.   Hard to say how much is just belief and how much is real. I think Butters is right in that Harry needs to be very careful to not hurt himself but that does not mean Harry is getting nothing from the mantle.  Butter's does not trust it so he thinks the worst instead of thinking he could be right about it even while it does give some sort of a boost.

Butters also hasn't actually seen Harry do a lot of the crazy super strength things he's done.

[Fcrate]

The frustrating thing with the later books is Jim took the soft approach - the dumbo's feather approach - on a lot of his power ups. In Skin Games Harry talks about how Lasciel isn't making Hannah Ascher any more powerful really, she just stirs up her passion (which Fire magic comes from) which makes Hannah think she is more powerful.

Same with the pretty weak explanation from Butters about how the Winter Mantle doesn't make Harry any stronger really, it just dulls his pain and gives him more access to his more primal self and makes it more easy to use Ice magic.

Bit of a cop out, especially considering the opposite side seem to get an actual power up (e.g. Fix gets fire magic, where previously he couldn't use fire magic. Also when Harry uses Soulfire in more complex ways it really boosts the efficiency of his spells and achieves much more exceptional results). Seems like Jim did a retcon of his previous ideas for one reason or another...

Exartiem - I don't think that is true exactly. Dark magic in the Dresden Files seems to have an inherently "evil" quality beyond the intention or mindset of the user. If that were not the case, as you say, then anyone with a complex moral compass could avoid the adverse affects the dark magic has on users. Bear in mind most people do not think of themselves or their actions as "evil" even if the majority thinks they are. In the Dresden Universe there does seem to be an absolute moral authority defining "good" and "evil" regardless on how one might think about the moral quality of an action.

+1
Regular mortals who became Winter Knights could use magic at a "Pretty brawny Wizard" level, so I'd assumed that Harry's power at least doubled. Hated Butter's explanation and Harry's acceptance of it, as it wil cripple him.

[Snark Knight]

Anyways I was thinking that in a desperate situation someone like Harry could call upon hellfire so he can do serious damage without burning off his own soul.

Well, hellfire and soulfire are described as sides of the same coin. So I'd guess at minimum, if someone who was granted soulfire subsequently went dark side on an epic enough scale, they'd be able to burn their own essence as hellfire rather than soulfire. It's probably a big part of why Uriel and co. are very careful about using markers in the great conflict to break rules by investing mortals with soulfire.

I tend to think based on the sides of the coin WOJ that hellfire was the Fallen's own rather power rather than something they draw from the region of the NN they inhabit, though. That doesn't necessarily preclude there being a way to hack it without their cooperation - a coin whose bearer was killed or surrendered it might make a channel to use against the linked Fallen, for one - but it would be much more difficult under that interpretation.