Did Michael lie?

[Mira]

The coins kick off the game when picked up by putting a shadow in the mind of the one who picked it up.  Clearly the Fallen don't need consent to operate at some level.

Yes, and the shadow is the corrupting influence that seduces until the potential host accepts the coin..  Only then according to Michael, when the coin is rejected by the host can the host be free of it... Or that is how it worked until Harry,  that is why Michael had a hard time buying that Harry had ridden himself of the shadow.

[Mr. Death]

Maybe. On the other hand, sufficiently powerful beings are not contained by normal circles--Harry mentions it when he's discussing the super-circle in Fool Moon.

It's a solid steel ring, and the whispers Harry is hearing cut off when he empowers it. That seems to me to make it clear that Harry was able to cut it off.

Besides, again, the coin itself is a prison meant to keep the Fallen from affecting the outside world.

The coins kick off the game when picked up by putting a shadow in the mind of the one who picked it up.  Clearly the Fallen don't need consent to operate at some level.

Sure it does. Harry picked up the coin willingly, right? And WOJ is that Harry didn't just put his booted foot down over it because on some level, he did want the power it offered.

And note that Lash keeps urging Harry to willingly take up the coin properly. Harry has to actively make a decision to use the coin's power.

Why do you think they needed to torture Marcone and Ivy to get them to take a coin? Because they have to willingly pick it up. You apparently can't force it on someone.

[nadia.skylark]

It's a solid steel ring, and the whispers Harry is hearing cut off when he empowers it. That seems to me to make it clear that Harry was able to cut it off.

It might just have limited the amount of power/influence the coin could have. I think of it as sort of like when you close a door to muffle the sound coming from the next room--if the noise is loud enough, you're still going to hear some of it, but it'll be quieter.

[Mira]

It's a solid steel ring, and the whispers Harry is hearing cut off when he empowers it. That seems to me to make it clear that Harry was able to cut it off.

Besides, again, the coin itself is a prison meant to keep the Fallen from affecting the outside world.

  Except for Harry it was already too late,  the shadow had already taken up residence inside his head by the time he got the coin buried and the ring around it.  Apparently if the shadow had been able to seduce Harry the coin still could have been summoned as Lash begs him to allow her to do before she herself breaks free.  So the "safe guards" of the ring and burying the coin in the ground were really ineffective.. If it had been any other potential host than Harry with his strong will and total fear of being taken over by one of the Fallen, the outcome would have been a lot different.  Because of that soul gaze of one of the dying Denarians early in Death Masks, Harry knew he'd never willingly be tempted beyond a certain point.

[morriswalters]

Sure it does. Harry picked up the coin willingly, right? And WOJ is that Harry didn't just put his booted foot down over it because on some level, he did want the power it offered.

And note that Lash keeps urging Harry to willingly take up the coin properly. Harry has to actively make a decision to use the coin's power.

Why do you think they needed to torture Marcone and Ivy to get them to take a coin? Because they have to willingly pick it up. You apparently can't force it on someone.

Just because I answer the door when you knock, doesn't mean you can set up housekeeping in my basement.  Obviously the child that Harry was trying to protect didn't have the capacity to understand what the coin represented.  He couldn't have made any type of decision other than, "Look,shiney, let me put it in my mouth."    Which belies the idea that you have to let them in by knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up.

[Mr. Death]

Just because I answer the door when you knock, doesn't mean you can set up housekeeping in my basement.  Obviously the child that Harry was trying to protect didn't have the capacity to understand what the coin represented.  He couldn't have made any type of decision other than, "Look,shiney, let me put it in my mouth."    Which belies the idea that you have to let them in by knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up.

I never said or implied that "knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up" is at all necessary to pick up the coin. Having the capacity to know what the coin was is irrelevant.

What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.

After that, there's the choice to accept the Fallen and use its power fully. That might be a more informed decision, but still does not require that the Fallen lay out every single term and consequence.

[nadia.skylark]

I never said or implied that "knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up" is at all necessary to pick up the coin. Having the capacity to know what the coin was is irrelevant.

What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.

After that, there's the choice to accept the Fallen and use its power fully. That might be a more informed decision, but still does not require that the Fallen lay out every single term and consequence.

Agreed.

[morriswalters]

What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.

On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.

I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view.  If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin.  While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.

[nadia.skylark]

I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view.  If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin.  While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.

I think the issue here might be that "willing" is not the same as "knowing". If the child had touched the coin willingly, it would have allowed the coin to place its shadow inside him even though he had no idea what he was doing. Does that make sense?

[morriswalters]

The word cooperated is getting in the way of his interpretation.  However I suspect he is right in terms of the book, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Mira]

The word cooperated is getting in the way of his interpretation.  However I suspect he is right in terms of the book, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I believe that Harry did willingly pick up the coin to prevent little Harry from picking it up... However he could have just picked up little Harry.  So it is a little of both, I also don't think Harry truly bought how dangerous the coins really were.  Yeah, he observed the great care the Knights used not to even accidentally touch a coin, he thought they were over reacting.  In his arrogance he thought he could without consequence, kind of like the cat that couldn't resist jumping on the hot stove.  This was Nic's opening, remember as Shiela the shadow was deeply entrenched in Harry's head before Harry even was aware.  It took future Holy Knight Butters to bring him back to reality, that this beautiful woman he was courting wasn't there...

[Mr. Death]

I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view.  If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin.  While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.

It's easy.

The Shadow is not the Fallen.

The Fallen is not affecting the outside world when it creates the Shadow. It's only affecting the creature that willingly picked up the coin.

There's two distinct mechanisms going on here.

1. Person picks up coin; by picking it up, they're effecting clicking "Agree" on the EULA they didn't read, which allows the Fallen to implant the Shadow, like an evil widget on your browser.

2. Person accepts the Fallen; by actually agreeing to use the Fallen's power, they haven't just clicked "Agree," they now actively using the program and letting it affect stuff on their harddrive.

[Mira]

1. Person picks up coin; by picking it up, they're effecting clicking "Agree" on the EULA they didn't read, which allows the Fallen to implant the Shadow, like an evil widget on your browser.

2. Person accepts the Fallen; by actually agreeing to use the Fallen's power, they haven't just clicked "Agree," they now actively using the program and letting it affect stuff on their harddrive.

Like everything connected with Harry it gets complicated...  Harry willingly picked up the coin, his motives fuzzy, on one hand he wanted to protect little Harry, but he could have simply have picked up little Harry... He knew he could be in danger so he thought if he buried it and put a power circle around it he'd be safe... It was already too late, also as Uriel demonstrated back in Changes, circles are ineffective against angels as what happened with Lasciel, fallen angels as well.  Harry had to learn that lesson the hard way...  So picking up the coin wasn't accidental or unwitting,  however Harry never agreed or ever intend to agree to become a host to a coin..

[nadia.skylark]

So picking up the coin wasn't accidental or unwitting

I think the Knights, at least, believe that picking up the coin without knowing what it is still gets you a shadow in your head--that's why Shiro stops Harry from touching Ursiel's coin before he knows about Denarians and why Michael says that if his son had touched the coin he would have been raised by Lasciel as a weapon against his family.

[Bad Alias]

To actually cast the spell, you have to break the circle. That's what Harry does every time we see him cast from within a circle -- the spell energies can't escape until the circle is broken. A circle is a closed thing, a trap.

On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.

The idea that the Fallen itself -- while in the coin, not on Harry's person, and trapped behind a circle -- is actively, directly powering his magic runs contrary to every concept involved here.

A circle can be broken by a being of spirit, both from within and from without. If a circle was an impenetrable force from which magic could not pass, Harry wouldn't have been worried in Storm Front about the hair Victor Sells had. Did Harry communicate with Eb using the stones from within a circle when Harry contacted Eb?

It's a solid steel ring, and the whispers Harry is hearing cut off when he empowers it. That seems to me to make it clear that Harry was able to cut it off.

It occurred to me that Lasciel could have not been effected at all by the circle, but was letting Harry think he had the upper hand. I'm not saying I believe it; it's just a thought I had.