WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife

[morriswalters]

So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.

What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?

Harry found multiple items on the table.  Nic specifically wanted the grail.  He killed his daughter and engineered the raid for precisely that purpose.  Did he know of the other items in any specific way?

[nadia.skylark]

Harry found multiple items on the table.  Nic specifically wanted the grail.  He killed his daughter and engineered the raid for precisely that purpose.  Did he know of the other items in any specific way?

It's implied that he actually wanted all five items, and the knife specifically; he's just pathologically incapable of being honest.

[peregrine]

Yeah.  Nic SAID he wanted the Grail, and presumably that was his main goal, but he almost certainly wanted the whole collection.

[Cozarkian]

Kill Lucifer?  Why would Nicodemus want to kill Lucifer, when it's clearly TWG that he's so bitterly impassioned against?  Furthermore, why would Lucifer help Nicodemus in Small Favor, if Nicodemus has ever displayed any issue at all?

Not arguing against you, per se; I just love twisty theories.  Straight and narrow ones generally don't have a chance of happening.

See Mab and Leah for a trusted enemy relationship similar to what Nico/Luci would have. They might work together, but Lucifer kicked Anduriel out of hell and trapped him in a coin precisely because Nicodemus was one of his strongest generals and therefore a threat to Lucifer. However, while the above is true, I agree it is too straightforward and too unrelated to the Outsider theme to be the motivation behind Nicodemus wanted the knife.

My theory is that when Harry suggested to Nicodemus in SmF that there was a traitor in the Denarians mix, while we were led to believe it was Namshiel, Nicodemus' investigation revealed that the treachery goes deeper and discovered that Lucifer is nemfected.

Here is the evidence: In Skin Game, Nicodemus sacrificed his daughter in Hades to protect her from the Enemy. It doesn't make sense that she needs protection from the TWG, because the worst that TWG would do is send her soul to hell for eternal damnation. That means Nicodemus is trying to keep her out of hell and put her in hades (the place) instead. Hades (the god), however, suggests that she isn't going to escape her crimes. Nicodemus is smart enough to know she's still going to be tortured in hades, so there must be some other reason than avoiding torture that explains why hades is preferable to hell. The difference has to be their respective rulers, Hades v. Lucifer. Why would Lucifer be bad and more specifically, why would being sent to hell to be tortured by Lucifer deliver her to the hands of the Enemy? Simple, Lucifer is Nemfected.

[KurtinStGeorge]

To get back to the OP.  I disagree with the idea of using the blade to free one or more of the Fallen from the coins. (Assuming it can be done.)  Nicodemus could get someone like Quintas Cassius to work with him, and certainly his daughter followed him, but a demon on the loose might be another story.  Plus, would Anduriel need Nicodemus if it was free of the coin?  I'm thinking probably not.  The Fallen might be more effective with a human host like Nicodemus, but most of them wouldn't see it that way and I doubt Nic would trust letting any of them out of their coins.

[nadia.skylark]

Plus, would Anduriel need Nicodemus if it was free of the coin?  I'm thinking probably not.  The Fallen might be more effective with a human host like Nicodemus, but most of them wouldn't see it that way

I think Anduriel probably would, though, given the nature of his relationship to Nicodemus.

and I doubt Nic would trust letting any of them out of their coins.

Why? Nicodemus is on their side.

[peregrine]

Here is the evidence: In Skin Game, Nicodemus sacrificed his daughter in Hades to protect her from the Enemy. It doesn't make sense that she needs protection from the TWG, because the worst that TWG would do is send her soul to hell for eternal damnation. That means Nicodemus is trying to keep her out of hell and put her in hades (the place) instead. Hades (the god), however, suggests that she isn't going to escape her crimes. Nicodemus is smart enough to know she's still going to be tortured in hades, so there must be some other reason than avoiding torture that explains why hades is preferable to hell. The difference has to be their respective rulers, Hades v. Lucifer. Why would Lucifer be bad and more specifically, why would being sent to hell to be tortured by Lucifer deliver her to the hands of the Enemy? Simple, Lucifer is Nemfected.

Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it?  And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences.  After all, he got himself played by Mab and Marcone, so he's hardly omniscient.

[nadia.skylark]

Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it?

Except she didn't avoid it.

And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences.

I'd like to think that he's a little smarter than that. After all, Roman mythology was the religion he grew up surrounded by.

[peregrine]

Except she didn't avoid it.

Not for lack of trying.

I'd like to think that he's a little smarter than that. After all, Roman mythology was the religion he grew up surrounded by.

Yeah, and then he spent the next approximately two millennia as part of Christian mythology.

[Mira]

Is not eternal damnation bad enough to want to avoid it?  And perhaps Nic was just so focused on avoiding judgement from TWG that he was blinded by the other possible consequences.  After all, he got himself played by Mab and Marcone, so he's hardly omniscient.

   I think it is gross rationalization of Nic's part that eternal damnation in Hades won't be as bad for his daughter than being damned on Judgement Day..  Hades disabused Harry of that notion and if one cares to study Greek or Roman mythology the punishments for those deserving of punishment are pretty bad and eternal, they range from getting one's liver torn out and devoured repeatedly to eternal thirst with only a sieve to try and scoop out water, oh yeah, the rolling up a large bolder up a steep hill only to have it roll back down again...   

[nadia.skylark]

Not for lack of trying.

I remain unconvinced that she was trying.

Yeah, and then he spent the next approximately two millennia as part of Christian mythology.

True, but given that he's well aware that the gods are real, I don't consider this an adequate reason to have neglected to realize how Hades works--if he was a bit unclear as to the detail after such a long time, he should have had the sense to check. You can find books of Greek/Roman mythology at any library, after all, and Nic had to have done a bunch of research to be able to break into Hades vault on top of that.

I'm fairly convinced that either A) Nicodemus knew exactly what he was condemning his daughter to (even if he wasn't too happy to have his nose rubbed in it) and thought it was worth the cost, or B) Anduriel muddled with his brain a bit.

[BrainFireBob]

WAG1: To summon Erlking, Harry used:
Heavy dog collar
Flint and steel
Bowie knife
Steel arrowheads
Whetstone

5 items

To summon God, Nicodemus could use:
Grail
Spear of Destiny
Shroud of Turin
Crown of Thorns
Plaque-forget its name

WAG2: The speartip sockets perfectly into the Blackstaff

WAG3: There are 4 Archangels, but we only see three Knights and 3 Swords. Spear is the fourth nail, to be born by Uriel's Knight

[kbrizzle]

@Cozarkian
That is a really interesting theory & would play into who juiced up Namshiel when he was assaulting Arctis Tor in PG. It also explains Deedee’s sacrifice in SG. My only argument against it would be that if someone as powerful as Lucifer is Nfected, the Outsiders would have started winning the overall war.

@BrainFireBob
While I’m not sure that God can be summoned in a ritual circle, your WAGs are very interesting. I also don’t know why the Swords would be linked to Archangels - are any of them supposed to explicitly embody love, faith & hope?

[BrainFireBob]

From memory:

Archangel Michael gave Sanya Esperacchius. Sanya has also referred to receiving directions from Michael multiple times.

Archangel Raphael is described by Mab as the "Demonbinder," and that he prefers to work with his own hands. The wards on Michael's house were, as I recall, described as Raphael's handiwork by Lasciel and Amoraccius has only gone out twice we know of- to perfect candidates each time. Possibly when the other two Swords were already in use? Regardless, Raphael rarely appointing a Knight tracks with preferring to do things himself

Archangel Gabriel is the Trumpeter, and Mab notes he's proclamatory. *Something* seized Murphy when she was wielding Fidellacius to pronounce judgement on the Red Court.

Mab notes that the Watchman, Uriel, is the most subtle and his works are rarely observed.

That's consistent with him not appointing a Knight.

I originally concocted this theory after Warriors, thinking that giving Harry Soulfire was anointing him as a Knight of the Cross, and was the equivalent of giving him a Sword. I still rather think this- it explains why Mab would "share" Harry with Uriel at all, if Uriel had a prior claim (even if Harry is ignorant of said claim). Once the Lance of Longinus appears, the idea of it being the fourth nail for the fourth Archangel simply fit.

[Avernite]

From memory:

Archangel Michael gave Sanya Esperacchius. Sanya has also referred to receiving directions from Michael multiple times.

Archangel Raphael is described by Mab as the "Demonbinder," and that he prefers to work with his own hands. The wards on Michael's house were, as I recall, described as Raphael's handiwork by Lasciel and Amoraccius has only gone out twice we know of- to perfect candidates each time. Possibly when the other two Swords were already in use? Regardless, Raphael rarely appointing a Knight tracks with preferring to do things himself

Archangel Gabriel is the Trumpeter, and Mab notes he's proclamatory. *Something* seized Murphy when she was wielding Fidellacius to pronounce judgement on the Red Court.

Mab notes that the Watchman, Uriel, is the most subtle and his works are rarely observed.

That's consistent with him not appointing a Knight.

I originally concocted this theory after Warriors, thinking that giving Harry Soulfire was anointing him as a Knight of the Cross, and was the equivalent of giving him a Sword. I still rather think this- it explains why Mab would "share" Harry with Uriel at all, if Uriel had a prior claim (even if Harry is ignorant of said claim). Once the Lance of Longinus appears, the idea of it being the fourth nail for the fourth Archangel simply fit.

I quite agree Harry is effectively an extra Knight - just look at what he does to Hannah Ascher in the vault, standard Knight working with added explosions rather than swords. Of course since Uriel is skirting the rules to get a 4th Knight, Lasciel still gets to be slightly manipulative even when Harry is talking to her, but that's the kind of tit-for-tat you get.

However, being that the case, it means Harry has been a 4th Knight since SF. So why would he need a 4th Sword to make him such? Nevermind that he has none of the three standard divine elements (Faith, Hope, Love) to work from.

However - there was a great big theological debate about Faith alone being what saves souls or Faith and works doing that, so making Uriel/Harry the Knight of 'getting the job done according to faith/hope/love' does have a certain appeal.

Your theory also does have a bit of fridge brilliance to never clear it up, so we might never get a clear yes or no; according to Wikipedia, there's debate about whether the crucifixion used 3 or 4 nails... And of course Uriel being a 4th Archangel is also disputed outside Dresden lore (and there's 3-4 more Archangels if you want to get deeper into the lore, depending if you follow Talmudic, Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, or Anglican ideas - but at least thanks to Mab's summary we can exclude those as particularly relevant; maybe they have jobs like keeping the stars burning rather than anything with humans).