WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife

[Kindler]

I'm fairly certain the knife was in the coat pocket thru the entire action of Skin Game. That is, once Harry pulled it out of his sleeve.

Yeah, I'm just curious if the knife was part of the reason Butters made it through the action, between running outside and getting the Sword. I know Harry's keeping the stuff on Demonreach now, and was mostly just wondering if it was chilling in the pocket of his borrowed coat.

[Mira]

Yeah, I'm just curious if the knife was part of the reason Butters made it through the action, between running outside and getting the Sword. I know Harry's keeping the stuff on Demonreach now, and was mostly just wondering if it was chilling in the pocket of his borrowed coat.

I doubt it, for starters Butters didn't know what is was, at the moment we don't know how it is used or if it provides any protection. 

[peregrine]

Without knowing how it works, we can't say for certain, but I don't think you need to know what it is or do anything to invoke it's power, you just need to have it.

That said, nothing that happened seemed to really require any supernatural protection on his part, until the Sword got into it, and chalking that up to the knife would undercut the importance of his faith that made it happen.

[Mira]

Without knowing how it works, we can't say for certain, but I don't think you need to know what it is or do anything to invoke it's power, you just need to have it.

That said, nothing that happened seemed to really require any supernatural protection on his part, until the Sword got into it, and chalking that up to the knife would undercut the importance of his faith that made it happen.

Exactly, unless you buy that it may have guided the hilt to the hand of Butters in the first place.  Harry tossed it in a last ditch leap of faith towards the hand of Charity, but it bounced instead to the hand of Butters and lit up.  On the other hand I agree that this might seem to undercut the power of the Sword to chose it's wielder...

[morriswalters]

So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.

What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?

His coin with the Fallen within, keeps him alive. It seems counter intuitive.

[peregrine]

It's hard to say.  Deirdre was enough of a true believer to sacrifice her life for the cause.  It's possible Nic is as well.

[nadia.skylark]

His coin with the Fallen within, keeps him alive. It seems counter intuitive.

It's hard to say.  Deirdre was enough of a true believer to sacrifice her life for the cause.  It's possible Nic is as well.

Given that Nicodemus is enough of a fanatic to sacrifice his daughter, I figure he's enough of a fanatic to be willing to die himself.

Alternately, he could have been planning to use the grail or shroud to prevent himself from aging and dying.

Or he could just free 29 of the Fallen and keep Anduriel. They work together well enough that Anduriel might not mind.

[morriswalters]

It wouldn't surprise me if the fallen were freed from the coins, maybe in the BAT.  I couldn't speculate intelligently. I don't know who put them there or why.  In their own way they are like the prisoners in Demonreach. Alfred says early on that the inmates of the prison are always dangerous, but least dangerous in the prison.  Which pretty much describes the Fallen.  Obviously Mab thinks the weapons will be needed.  On the surface they appear to be modeled loosely on the One Ring if you find that helpful.

[Cozarkian]

True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win. For another thing, it undermines free will somewhat if the wielder will win no matter what anyone does.

It doesn't destroy all tension if it is limited to the wielder of the knife cannot be defeated in battle. He can still be tricked, trapped, betrayed, or murdered, just not beat in a fight. It also doesn't destroy free will - you can always choose not to engage the wielder in a battle. Yes, the wielder might kill you - but that was the wielder's choice to do so.

[DonBugen]

I don't think that Nicodemus would go through all that trouble, especially with sacrificing his daughter, if the grand prize was an item which had a slight improvement over the noose already around his throat.

Honestly, with this guy, I think there's only one or two things that he would give about anything for.  My best guess is that the knife (if it IS the same spear which pierced Christ's side) is a conjunction, much in the same way that Halloween is - it's an item which allows the user to slay an immortal.  Only instead of having to wait for a particular time, or approaching a being while IN the flow of time, it just gives them the ability to kill.

No real evidence, but it fits thematically both with who Nicodemus is, the small list of impossible things he'd sacrifice his daughter in order to accomplish, and known potential powers given the history of the item in question.

[Cozarkian]

I don't think that Nicodemus would go through all that trouble, especially with sacrificing his daughter, if the grand prize was an item which had a slight improvement over the noose already around his throat.

Honestly, with this guy, I think there's only one or two things that he would give about anything for.  My best guess is that the knife (if it IS the same spear which pierced Christ's side) is a conjunction, much in the same way that Halloween is - it's an item which allows the user to slay an immortal.  Only instead of having to wait for a particular time, or approaching a being while IN the flow of time, it just gives them the ability to kill.

No real evidence, but it fits thematically both with who Nicodemus is, the small list of impossible things he'd sacrifice his daughter in order to accomplish, and known potential powers given the history of the item in question.

I agree with that. In fact, I would say either you are right and I'm wrong, or we are both right. I think Nicodemus wants to kill Lucifer. Your theory makes sense in that it gives him the power to accomplish that task. My theory could also be true - because Nicodemus needs the knife to actually win (the noose wouldn't be enough), but my theory isn't necessary.

[peregrine]

I'd point out that being able to always win a fight does not mean someone would always succeed.  If Harry's goal is to find something out, or protect someone, or convince someone, the knife isn't necessarily going to help him.  Maybe he can fight and defeat one enemy, but if there's two more going around him entirely, that doesn't do him much good.

[DonBugen]

Kill Lucifer?  Why would Nicodemus want to kill Lucifer, when it's clearly TWG that he's so bitterly impassioned against?  Furthermore, why would Lucifer help Nicodemus in Small Favor, if Nicodemus has ever displayed any issue at all?

Not arguing against you, per se; I just love twisty theories.  Straight and narrow ones generally don't have a chance of happening.

[Slowpool]

Just imagine using it as an athame in a ritual!

I'd bet a dollar he sticks it to the end of his staff.  Odin makes it look so fashionable.

[Mira]

I'd point out that being able to always win a fight does not mean someone would always succeed.  If Harry's goal is to find something out, or protect someone, or convince someone, the knife isn't necessarily going to help him.  Maybe he can fight and defeat one enemy, but if there's two more going around him entirely, that doesn't do him much good.

  It is about power on a huge scale,  Harry may need that kind of boost in the BAT, that is what the Knife will give him.  Though I doubt he has much of a clue at the moment about how to use it or if he should use it.