WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife

[nadia.skylark]

So, I was reading an old thread about what would happen if you sacrificed a denarian on the stone table, and it sparked an idea.

What if the reason Nicodemus wanted the knife from Skin Game was because it can destroy denarian coins, which by WoJ would free the Fallen inside to act?

[groinkick]

It's possible but the mythology of the Knife is that the wielder cannot be defeated.  I think that is the reason.  A battle is brewing and Nicodemus wants every advantage he can get. Michael was able to fight Outsiders with his Sword while wizard magic wasn't effective.  If a Holy Sword works, I'd imagine the Knife would as well.

[peregrine]

That assumes that the knife is actually the blade of the Spear of Destiny.  Which is a decent assumption, but not necessarily guaranteed.

[Bad Alias]

I'd call it a safe assumption. Anything else would be pretty hard for me to believe or a major twist in the entire cosmology of the DF.

[nadia.skylark]

the mythology of the Knife is that the wielder cannot be defeated.

True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win. For another thing, it undermines free will somewhat if the wielder will win no matter what anyone does. The Knife is clearly connected to the the White God, and he doesn't do that. What I think the knife might do is allow its wielder to carry out their choices unimpeded, ex. if Harry chooses to look for a way out of the Winter Knight mantle, Mab can't just put a geas on him to stop him, but Harry has to make that choice (and then all the choices that would lead to him finding a way and then choosing to go through with it--although he might be helped by contrived coincidence). If Harry, on the other hand, chose to get into a sword fight with Nicodemus without protective armor, the Knife might tilt things in Harry's favor but I have a hard time believing that it would stop him from getting stabbed.

[exartiem]

If the possessor of the Spear of Destiny cannot be defeated, then how was Hades defeated to take it?  Hades is not, historically, known to ever willingly give up his possessions.

I cannot help but wonder if the items are genuine or powerful fakes?

[groinkick]

If the possessor of the Spear of Destiny cannot be defeated, then how was Hades defeated to take it?  Hades is not, historically, known to ever willingly give up his possessions.

Hades explained pretty clearly what the Vault was for, mortal weapons for mortal's to wield.  Hades wasn't defeated

True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win.

First: Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse.  It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC.  Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.

[nadia.skylark]

First: Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse.  It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

[Snark Knight]

Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.

If it's like most other power in the DV, being greater than the swords might also means it has a correspondingly narrower range of legitimate purposes.

[nadia.skylark]

Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse.  It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC.  Second: Just like the Swords it probably has a specific use, and therefor the wielder can't just go around doing everything they want.

So does anyone have suggestions for what it can do and what its purpose is?

I think it might cut through supernatural forms of binding--that would fit with TWG's stated agenda of free will above all else, it would let Harry use it to get out of being Winter Knight if he chose, and it would support my theory of Nicodemus wanting it to free the Fallen from their coins.

[Kindler]

Hmm. I think the Knife was in Harry's coat pocket... which Butters put on before he ran out to fight Nicodemus. I can't really check right now to be sure—does Harry hand it off to Michael or someone else?

[nadia.skylark]

Hmm. I think the Knife was in Harry's coat pocket... which Butters put on before he ran out to fight Nicodemus. I can't really check right now to be sure—does Harry hand it off to Michael or someone else?

I'm fairly certain Harry's got it now. I think I remember a discussion at the end of Skin Game where Michael acknowledges the corruption in the Church as a reason Harry should keep the artifacts.

[Bad Alias]

I'm fairly certain the knife was in the coat pocket thru the entire action of Skin Game. That is, once Harry pulled it out of his sleeve.

[groinkick]

There is a chance Nicodemus didn't want to knife for any purpose other than to unmake it, destroy it.  He could have known that the need for the Knife was coming, and that it would find it's way into the hands of mortals, and he wanted to prevent it from happening.  Ironically it was his actions that resulted in mortals acquiring the Knife.


A fun theory I just thought of is that the knife is more of a Saint's weapon (a wizard who uses Faith Magic).  It would be one heck of a foci tool

[nadia.skylark]

A fun theory I just thought of is that the knife is more of a Saint's weapon (a wizard who uses Faith Magic).  It would be one heck of a foci tool

Just imagine using it as an athame in a ritual!