Our

[Yuillegan]

There is this random thing where beings like Mother Summer and Winter, Uriel refer themselves occasionally as "our". Perhaps this is Jim's use of the royal "our" and they are speaking in third person...but I think it is a bit of hint. Certainly it is made a fuss of when Mother Summer says it when talking about Names and Masks in Cold Days.

It has long been speculated that Mother Summer and Winter are actually two parts of a greater being...though I believe Jim has hinted that all 6 queens actually make up the greater whole.

But is Uriel an aspect of a larger being too? Is he an Avatar of TWG or some such? Was he merely referring to Heaven's power? Is the Uriel in Dresden Files a sliver of the much larger Uriel that spans all worlds and realities?

[Bad Alias]

The way I see it for the Queens is that the higher up you go, the more they are whoever they were and the less human they are. The Mother's being the closest to who they were are the most likely to understand and recognize it.

I don't recall Uriel using our. I'd imagine he was talking about a class of beings he is a part of.

[Salusen]

I recall that same theory that said Mother Winter and Mother Summer are actually two personas of the same Being. Like TWG has 3 personalities (the Holy Trinity), so it might be true.

I've checked out the name Atropos on the internet (I have to say that JB is damn good at research) and apparently she belong to the Fates or the Moirai (hello Greek Pantheon and Cold Days' foreshadowing to Skin Game Hades). She's a goddess of fate and of death. Skuld is the Norn version of Atropos. Basically the Winter Queen in both Viking and Greek mythologies.

I'd have to say that possibly Mother Summer's other names are Lachesis (Greek) and Veroandi (Norn). And if my logic serves me right, their most powerful Name(s) might be Uror (Norn), Clotho (Greek), or simply Fate in english. And Harry, by challenging them, was challenging Fate/Destiny. Which is sooo Harry.

 

[morriswalters]

Hecate.

[Salusen]

Hecate.

Yep. Her. Hecate. Hahaha. God, how did I miss that?

[Yuillegan]

The way I see it for the Queens is that the higher up you go, the more they are whoever they were and the less human they are. The Mother's being the closest to who they were are the most likely to understand and recognize it.

I don't recall Uriel using our. I'd imagine he was talking about a class of beings he is a part of.

Quite possibly - certainly the way the Queens and Ladies talk about themselves as opposed to how the Mothers are is very very different. The Mothers are definitely closer to the original being/beings.

I am referring to the part where he discusses healing Michael in Skin Game.

(click to show/hide)

“What have you done?” he asked. “It was not within our power to heal what was done to you,” Uriel said. “I’m sorry. It was not chance that brought you to harm, but choice.”

It intrigues me, Harry was a bit distracted but were he paying more attention perhaps he would have asked what Uriel meant by "Our".

Salusen - check out the excellent GUMCT post Serack made - should give you a good base on the Mothers.

[Salusen]

Yeah, I had been wondering out Uriel saying "our" like that. I'd always thought that he was referring to himself and the angels collectively. but it could possibly mean that Uriel on Earth is just a part of the angel's complex being. Hmmm.

It could be that Uriel exists across multiple realities and universes.


Thanks for the tip about Serack's Post!

[Snark Knight]

Quite possibly - certainly the way the Queens and Ladies talk about themselves as opposed to how the Mothers are is very very different. The Mothers are definitely closer to the original being/beings.

I wouldn't even be surprised if Mother Winter is the mantle Hecate chose to keep for herself when dividing her power, and she's still the same being.

[Salusen]

I wouldn't even be surprised if Mother Winter is the mantle Hecate chose to keep for herself when dividing her power, and she's still the same being.

Which explains why Winter is the more powerful of the Fae courts. And why they have the task of protecting the Outer Gates. And why Mab and Hades are apparently on good terms.

[morriswalters]

The books give you at least one perspective on the Mothers.  In Cold Days, Mother Summer, when told of Harry finding out one of the Adversary's names, says

So many new futures unwinding.

Implying that she and Mother Winter can see reality splitting due to Harry's new knowledge.  It's an interesting exchange.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Which explains why Winter is the more powerful of the Fae courts. And why they have the task of protecting the Outer Gates. And why Mab and Hades are apparently on good terms.

Winter didn't always have the task of protecting the Outer Gates.  According to Jim, the responsibility for carrying out that task has changed hands more than once.  In fact, the reason Mab owed Anduriel a favor that she paid off in Skin Game, was when Winter first took over at the Outer Gates, Mab was short handed in some manner that wasn't explained, and Anduriel loaned her Nicodemus to do whatever it was she needed to get done.  (Probably something very violent and her Knight wasn't available for some reason.  Isn't there one Winter Knight who escaped the job, Tam Lin?  Could be the reason why Mab needed Nic to do her dirty work until she had time to recruit someone else, and she couldn't do that immediately (possibly) because when Winter took over Mab had to organize her troops at the Outer Gates.)

[Bad Alias]

Quite possibly - certainly the way the Queens and Ladies talk about themselves as opposed to how the Mothers are is very very different. The Mothers are definitely closer to the original being/beings.

I am referring to the part where he discusses healing Michael in Skin Game.

(click to show/hide)

“What have you done?” he asked. “It was not within our power to heal what was done to you,” Uriel said. “I’m sorry. It was not chance that brought you to harm, but choice.”

It intrigues me, Harry was a bit distracted but were he paying more attention perhaps he would have asked what Uriel meant by "Our".

Salusen - check out the excellent GUMCT post Serack made - should give you a good base on the Mothers.

Uriel's use of our is intriguing indeed. It probably just means the angles or archangels in charge of the Swords. It definitely bears some thinking on though.

The Queens are definitely on a few intertwined sliding scales. The Ladies are closest to humanity and earth, they have the greatest ability to be direct, they have the least power. Those are all about as certain as we can get. There are probably other things that exist on that spectrum that we only have some or no knowledge of.

I recall that same theory that said Mother Winter and Mother Summer are actually two personas of the same Being. Like TWG has 3 personalities (the Holy Trinity), so it might be true.

I've checked out the name Atropos on the internet (I have to say that JB is damn good at research) and apparently she belong to the Fates or the Moirai (hello Greek Pantheon and Cold Days' foreshadowing to Skin Game Hades). She's a goddess of fate and of death. Skuld is the Norn version of Atropos. Basically the Winter Queen in both Viking and Greek mythologies.

I'd have to say that possibly Mother Summer's other names are Lachesis (Greek) and Veroandi (Norn). And if my logic serves me right, their most powerful Name(s) might be Uror (Norn), Clotho (Greek), or simply Fate in english. And Harry, by challenging them, was challenging Fate/Destiny. Which is sooo Harry.

Isn't it the case that Harry used three names and only one was correct? The line is something along the lines of correct in one, but not entirely stupid in the others. Also he didn't use the most correct name.

[Salusen]

Winter didn't always have the task of protecting the Outer Gates.  According to Jim, the responsibility for carrying out that task has changed hands more than once.  In fact, the reason Mab owed Anduriel a favor that she paid off in Skin Game, was when Winter first took over at the Outer Gates, Mab was short handed in some manner that wasn't explained, and Anduriel loaned her Nicodemus to do whatever it was she needed to get done.  (Probably something very violent and her Knight wasn't available for some reason.  Isn't there one Winter Knight who escaped the job, Tam Lin?  Could be the reason why Mab needed Nic to do her dirty work until she had time to recruit someone else, and she couldn't do that immediately (possibly) because when Winter took over Mab had to organize her troops at the Outer Gates.)

I agree with that. But why would Hecate choose to divide herself unevenly between Winter and Summer, if not for the purpose of having Winter take over the protection of the Outer Gates?

Unless she saw Harry as the Winter Knight in a possible future and decided to hedge her bets on him?

[Salusen]

Isn't it the case that Harry used three names and only one was correct? The line is something along the lines of correct in one, but not entirely stupid in the others. Also he didn't use the most correct name.

Yeah, because apparently Mother Winter and Summer could be Hecate. Harry didn't call on Hecate. He called on Atropos and Skuld, Atropos being one of the Norn Fates. Skuld was one of Hecate's names, but not one Mother Winter's. At least that's how I understood it.

[Bad Alias]

Skuld's one of the three Norse Norns, and Atropos is one of the three Greek Fates. Atropos makes sense, but I don't know enough Norse mythology to determine if Skuld does. I've only read the wikipedia page, but it says she is the youngest Norn, so that, at least, doesn't seem to fit.