Weird Inconsistency in Skin Game

[Yuillegan]

In the fight between Karen and Nicodemus, he has just shot Karen in the belly during their sword fight. She still manages to get Fidelacchius to his throat somehow...and then when she strikes while he is defenceless (after asking to be saved and removing his tie, coin and weapons) she then breaks the sword. Immediately he headbutts her and strikes her in the jaw. Then she fights back and loses their sparring and ends up in a lock the forces her to her knees. Then SOMEHOW he strikes her knee and breaks is, and she falls to the ground. The thing is though..how is that possible? She was already on the ground kneeling (a very strong position for a knee for a start) and then he breaks her knee and she falls to the ground again. But she was ALREADY on the ground

(click to show/hide)

Karrin seemed to gather herself together. She flicked a quick blow at Nicodemus’s face, forcing him to duck, and then their hands engaged in a complex and swift-moving series of motions that ended with Karrin’s left arm held out straight, while she was forced down to her knees on the freezing sidewalk.

Nicodemus twisted Karrin, tilted his head to one side, and then drove his heel against her knee with crushing strength. I heard bones and tendons parting at the blow. Karrin choked out another sound of pain, and crumpled to the ground, broken.

[Mira]

   Well, one can be on one's knees, hit further to fall to a face plant...

[Mr. Death]

Two things -- "on her knees" and "crumpled to the ground" are two different things. The former, you can be mostly upright; the latter implies you're flat on the ground or curled up, but either way, recumbent.

Second, I think "Nicodemus twisted Karrin" probably accounts for the discrepancy. She was on her knees, then he turned and repositioned her such that one of her knees was no longer on the ground, broke her knee, then let her drop.

[Yuillegan]

I am aware of the difference between the phrases, and that was my conclusion too, however it is a pretty clumsy piece of writing (which is pretty rare for Jim).

It is just one of those limitations from how the author sees a scene in their head, to how it is then transposed through the (quite limited) form of writing, to how a reader then interprets it. While it doesn't take away from the scene, and when I read it the first time I don't even think I noticed, it just is a bit jarring.

[groinkick]

It didn't happen so quickly as your put it here.  There was dialogue between the two, along with Nicodemus twisting his shoulders and hurting her arm.  During the time she was put on her knee's, and the time he kicked her knee it's believable, and likely that she had gotten up, or was partially up when the kick happened.

[Yuillegan]

Groinkick - I find that unlikely considering he had forced her into a lock that brought her to her knees. I can tell you as Purple Belt in BJJ, if some gets you that good, you will struggle to get up unless that is what they want. Not to mention she had just been shot in the got multiple times. But even if it were the case that she got up in between, why not describe the action? Jim normally is reasonably descriptive and in such a pivotal scene it would make logical sense to include such action in order to reinforce the dramatic nature of the following violence, which benches Murphy for the rest of the book.

From both a logical and writing perspective, it just doesn't add up.

[Mira]

It didn't happen so quickly as your put it here.  There was dialogue between the two, along with Nicodemus twisting his shoulders and hurting her arm.  During the time she was put on her knee's, and the time he kicked her knee it's believable, and likely that she had gotten up, or was partially up when the kick happened.

It didn't happen quickly, because Nic didn't want it to... That simple,  he was talking her conversationally, like he wasn't exerting himself in the least, and he wasn't, he let her know that
as well, kind of twisting the knife, rubbing salt in the wounds as he made them you might say.  Once the Sword was broken, which was his first goal,  again if she was shot in the belly, how did she manage to get the Sword to his throat?  Nic allowed her to, he did the complete surrender thing, trying to kill him with the Sword at that point would get it broken... Task done..

 Goal number 2, he wanted to break her.. Not just her body, which he did quite easily, but her mind and spirit as well...   It remains to be seen how severe or permanent a job he did do..  It was never his goal to kill her.

[morriswalters]

From the description as written I would assume that he twisted her so as to get her knee off the ground while leaving her foot planted. Giving him the position and leverage  to do a lateral strike on the knee.  You can test the positioning.  The knee would be weakest in that position with the foot acting as a fulcrum.

The adjective he uses in the second paragraph is crumpled, as in on the floor in a heap or lying prone.  When you are on your knees you are upright but not standing.  I can't really judge the quality of the writing.

[Mira]

From the description as written I would assume that he twisted her so as to get her knee off the ground while leaving her foot planted. Giving him the position and leverage  to do a lateral strike on the knee.  You can test the positioning.  The knee would be weakest in that position with the foot acting as a fulcrum.

The adjective he uses in the second paragraph is crumpled, as in on the floor in a heap or lying prone.  When you are on your knees you are upright but not standing.  I can't really judge the quality of the writing.

All of that sounds about right.

[groinkick]

It didn't happen quickly, because Nic didn't want it to... That simple,  he was talking her conversationally, like he wasn't exerting himself in the least, and he wasn't, he let her know that
as well, kind of twisting the knife, rubbing salt in the wounds as he made them you might say.  Once the Sword was broken, which was his first goal,  again if she was shot in the belly, how did she manage to get the Sword to his throat?  Nic allowed her to, he did the complete surrender thing, trying to kill him with the Sword at that point would get it broken... Task done..

 Goal number 2, he wanted to break her.. Not just her body, which he did quite easily, but her mind and spirit as well...   It remains to be seen how severe or permanent a job he did do..  It was never his goal to kill her.

I was just giving the plausibility of how Nick was able to kick Murphy's knee

[Mira]

I was just giving the plausibility of how Nick was able to kick Murphy's knee

Lots of ways, especially if he was standing and she wasn't..  Rereading,  he had forced her to her knees, which shocked Harry because he "had never seen her lose when it came to grappling for a lock."  Then he twisted his shoulders which inflicted more pain on her apparently, she screamed in
pain...  Then "Nicodemus twisted Karrin, tilted his head, and then drove his heel against her knee with crushing strength.  Sounds to me like he didn't kick her so much as stomped with all his weight and strength on the back of her kneeling knee.   It wasn't a kick, it was a stomp...  Then
he let go of her and she crumpled the rest of the way to the ground.