Black Council/The Circle/Nemesis

[Bad Alias]

So we all know that there is some conspiracy (or conspiracies) going on behind the scenes that has (or have) caused most, if not all, of Harry's major troubles. The first name we get is the Black Council from Harry because mortal practitioners are involved. Then we hear about a Circle in White Night and Changes. In White Night, it is some organization the Malvora and Madrigal Raith are working for, are aware of, and Cowl is the contact for. I find it unclear as to whether the Malvora is "in" the Circle or just an agent of it. In Changes, it is mentioned by the Eebs, but they might just be referring to the Lords of Outer Night.

I think of the Black Council as an organization made up of mortal practitioners, mostly current or former members of the White Council, separate from the Circle. I think of the Circle is an organization with representatives from various supernatural groups with some unknown mutual aims and a lot of backstabbing. The leadership of some supernatural groups are entirely aware of the Circle and part of it. I think the Black Council is one of those groups. Only factions of some groups are aware and represented. The White Council, through the Black Council, would be an example here.

Alternatively, the Black Council and the Circle could be the exact same thing. Either a group of wizards calling themselves the Circle, or a larger supernatural conspiracy that Dresden simply thought was made up of just wizards.

We've got a pretty clear picture of what Nemesis is, if not how it works. It's an Outsider secret agent/sapper/infiltrator.

I think Nemesis influences the Circle but does not control it. It almost certainly controls some of the members of every major supernatural group, including the Circle.

I also think the Circle has only thirteen members for the reasons stated in Storm Front. Additionally, there were thirteen Lords of Outer Night, perhaps for the same reason.

Alternatively, everything is either Nemesis or it's catspaws.

Thoughts?

[wardenferry419]

 On the TV show X-Files, the Smoking Man and his group were both openly working with the aliens as a sort of "vichy government" and secretly working against the aliens and their invasion plans. I can see the Circle or Harry's Black Council as being in a similar position with the Outsiders.
As for Nemesis, he/she/it seems to be stirring the waters of discontent among the various supernatural groups so that they do not become a unified front.

[morriswalters]

I think of the Black Council as an organization made up of mortal practitioners, mostly current or former members of the White Council, separate from the Circle. I think of the Circle is an organization with representatives from various supernatural groups with some unknown mutual aims and a lot of backstabbing. The leadership of some supernatural groups are entirely aware of the Circle and part of it. I think the Black Council is one of those groups. Only factions of some groups are aware and represented. The White Council, through the Black Council, would be an example here.

This is a good, concise narrative that fits what few facts we have.  And wardenferry419's call out on the Vichy government makes a certain amount of sense.  If Cowls purpose in Dead Beat was to gain power and to defeat death, his actions read differently if by death you mean the Adversary.

Odd side issue, did anybody notice that both Ramirez and Kumori use gloves with their magic?  Who was Ramirez's teacher?

[wardenferry419]

Someone that was at the big meeting in SK because Ramirez was the apprentice that laughed.

[Snark Knight]

This is a good, concise narrative that fits what few facts we have.  And wardenferry419's call out on the Vichy government makes a certain amount of sense.  If Cowls purpose in Dead Beat was to gain power and to defeat death, his actions read differently if by death you mean the Adversary.

I'm still not convinced the objective of ending death was ever anything more to him than a useful lie. Kumori's got a bit of a screw loose on that particular topic, so acting like that's what he wants the power of the Darkhallow for keeps her loyal and helpful. He sure as hell didn't intend on immortality for everyone, even if he might have granted it to a few.

Though now that you bring up the comparison between death and the Adversary, it does have some interesting resonance to Lea looking back on having been arrogant to think she could take the infected knife and defeat "that which stalks us all"...

[Yuillegan]

Good ideas all, but I seem to remember in one of the more recent novels that Harry has an epiphany where he realises what he assumed, in his arrogance, was a group of dark wizards could be something much larger and more complex and diverse in it's affliates and members.

I think this is when he is getting a better idea about Nemesis etc.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I remember a scene from the third X-Men movie; The Last Stand, the one that totally botched the Dark Phoenix storyline, where Magneto sends a bunch of his recruits into battle, but holds his most powerful ones back and says of the first group, "They're cannon fodder."  I get the feeling there is something similar going on with the Black Council or Circle.

There are actually a surprising number of people and not people who know something is going on, that something big is about to happen and for various reasons see it as an opportunity to gain power for themselves.  Only a few are really clued in and they don't have any problem with using and sacrificing people they pretend to bring in to the conspiracy.  So for example, it's possible that Cowl was behind some of the planning that went into the assault on Demonreach island in "Cold Days," but he sure as hell didn't make himself a potential target by riding on any of the barges with the practitioners who were attempting the ritual to bring down the island prison's defences.  In "White Night" Madrigal Raith thought he was joining the Circle, but even Vitto Malvora thought of him as a fool who could be sacrificed as the need allowed.  Vitto was given power by an Outsider, but I would bet that Cowl thought of him as nothing more than a tool that could be sacrificed when the need arose, as it did. 

We know there was a plan of some sort discussed by Margaret LeFay, Duchess Arianna of the Red Court and Lord Raith of the White Court.  We don't know, but suspect that plan is at the heart of the Black Council / Circle.  The first two people named are dead and the third might as well be dead, though I suppose it is technically possible for Lord Raith to make a comeback.  Justin DuMorne had been a sometime ally to Margaret LeFay; presumably when she was full red light saber, so he may have known about the plan and he may or may not have been in direct contact with the Outsider HWWB.  Harry believes that Justin called up HWWB, but Harry isn't a 100% reliable narrator.  Margaret tried to get Ebenezer McCoy to join this conspiracy, but he refused.  At least, that's what he told Harry.  Finally, it's theoretically possible that Lara Raith may have learned something of her father's role in this plan, if she didn't turn him into a potato before she thought about questioning him for useful information.  However, Lord Raith may have been too dangerous to do anything less than give him the equivalent of a lobotomy when Lara pacified him, so she may still be in the dark.

It seems to me that one day, when Harry gets more clues about what's going on and becomes a little bit inquisitive, he's going to have a conversation with Ebenezer and see if the old wizard can tell Harry about what Margaret's plan was about, assuming it has anything to do with the Black Council / Circle.  Of course, Ebenezer could die before Harry ever thinks of asking his grandfather about that scheme.  In fact, I think it's more likely Ebenezer would bring the subject up first, and might do so if he was dying and Harry was there.

 

[Bad Alias]

This is a good, concise narrative that fits what few facts we have.  And wardenferry419's call out on the Vichy government makes a certain amount of sense.  If Cowls purpose in Dead Beat was to gain power and to defeat death, his actions read differently if by death you mean the Adversary.

Odd side issue, did anybody notice that both Ramirez and Kumori use gloves with their magic?  Who was Ramirez's teacher?

Thanks. The main reason I brought this up is I've seen a lot of posters write as if they are all definitely, 100%, the same thing. Kind of like every villain is definitely infected. I just think that's a little one dimensional.

@Yuillegan: Molly definitely conflates the Black Council with Nemesis while Harry is talking in Cold Days. Harry just goes with it because of all the reasons one isn't supposed to go around talking about Nemesis. Regardless of what's actually going on, the term Black Council to describe members of the White Council working in opposition to it is useful, even if every single one of them is infected.

There are actually a surprising number of people and not people who know something is going on, that something big is about to happen and for various reasons see it as an opportunity to gain power for themselves.

I'd say some of the people/not people that see that something big is about to happen are preparing primarily to survive it. If they can gain power in the process, all the better. I think Jim stated something about Lara is expanding her influence because something big is coming. I inferred that she wouldn't normally take whatever risks are associated with influence at that level if not for the storm clouds on the horizon.

[Salusen]

So we all know that there is some conspiracy (or conspiracies) going on behind the scenes that has (or have) caused most, if not all, of Harry's major troubles. The first name we get is the Black Council from Harry because mortal practitioners are involved. Then we hear about a Circle in White Night and Changes. In White Night, it is some organization the Malvora and Madrigal Raith are working for, are aware of, and Cowl is the contact for. I find it unclear as to whether the Malvora is "in" the Circle or just an agent of it. In Changes, it is mentioned by the Eebs, but they might just be referring to the Lords of Outer Night.

I think of the Black Council as an organization made up of mortal practitioners, mostly current or former members of the White Council, separate from the Circle. I think of the Circle is an organization with representatives from various supernatural groups with some unknown mutual aims and a lot of backstabbing. The leadership of some supernatural groups are entirely aware of the Circle and part of it. I think the Black Council is one of those groups. Only factions of some groups are aware and represented. The White Council, through the Black Council, would be an example here.

Alternatively, the Black Council and the Circle could be the exact same thing. Either a group of wizards calling themselves the Circle, or a larger supernatural conspiracy that Dresden simply thought was made up of just wizards.

We've got a pretty clear picture of what Nemesis is, if not how it works. It's an Outsider secret agent/sapper/infiltrator.

I think Nemesis influences the Circle but does not control it. It almost certainly controls some of the members of every major supernatural group, including the Circle.

I also think the Circle has only thirteen members for the reasons stated in Storm Front. Additionally, there were thirteen Lords of Outer Night, perhaps for the same reason.

Alternatively, everything is either Nemesis or it's catspaws.

Thoughts?

I think you're onto something here. When I first read about the Black Council, Nemesis, and the Circle - I thought they were the same thing too. But since rereading the Dresden Files, I've come to three possible conclusions:

1. The Black Council is mostly made up of mortal practitioners who've turned their backs on the White Council (warlocks, etc.), but it's just a child compared to the Circle - who controls the Black Council.  One or two of the members of the Circle may be infected with Nemesis. Or directly working with the Outsiders. Like Mavra. I think she's most likely a part of the Circle, but not necessarily the Black Council.

2. The Nemesis controls the Circle and the Black Council. The Black Council and the Circle on their own are dangerous enemies to Harry and friends, but the Nemesis made it possible for these two to become a lethal threat to every supernatural being on Earth. I think Nemesis started by creating the Circle, and then worked towards forming the Black Council through the Circle. Someone in the White Council, other than Peabody, is also a traitor.

3. Nicodemus and company planned to steal the five holy relics from Hades' vault because they have their own war against the Outsiders. The Fallen are still angels, and if the Outsiders ever get into the world -- they are a huge threat to the angels' power base. Lea thought the Athame could be used as a weapon against the Outsiders. But I'm guessing it's actually the knife Harry stole. So Nicodemus wanted that specifically but he had to settle for the Holy Grail.

And of course Uriel knew about their plan to steal the relics in advance. As an archangel, he told Harry that he intended to save the souls that were under the influence of the Denarians. But he's been known to work several plans all at once, so I think he also lent his Grace to Michael to ensure that the relics wouldn't fall into the wrong hands once they were stolen. And now that they're out in the world, they can be successfully used against the Outsiders.

So in future books, minions of Nemesis might come gunning for them. Possibly in the form of one of the Circle. Like Mavra. Or another supernatural entity infected with it. At this point, the Black Council can't really risk moving because they risk premature exposure.. so the obvious enemies will come for Harry, while the others work in the background.

[Bad Alias]

I'm fairly certain that the knife was the Spear of Destiny and not anything else in addition to that. (The Holy Lance, also known as the Lance of Longinus (named after Saint Longinus), the Spear of Destiny, or the Holy Spear, according to the Gospel of John, is the lance that pierced the side of Jesus as he hung on the cross). - the great wiki. It can't be the athame Lea got because Amoracchius is the athame's equivalent. The items from Hades' vault had the same power, but much more of it than the Swords.

[Yuillegan]

@Yuillegan: Molly definitely conflates the Black Council with Nemesis while Harry is talking in Cold Days. Harry just goes with it because of all the reasons one isn't supposed to go around talking about Nemesis. Regardless of what's actually going on, the term Black Council to describe members of the White Council working in opposition to it is useful, even if every single one of them is infected.

Not quite, you have it in reverse - in the actual passage he allow Molly to assume that the Black Council is merely Wizards rather than something far larger and more problematic.

(click to show/hide)

"Black Council,” Molly whispered. “Exactly,” I said, which it wasn’t. Up until earlier today, I had known someone was covertly causing the world a lot of grief—and due to their connections with some grim events within the White Council I had assumed it was a group of wizards, which was both naturally arrogant and extremely nearsighted of me. But what if I’d been wrong? What if the Black Council was just one more offshoot of one enormous, intangible enemy? If what I’d gotten from Lily was accurate, the problem was a hell of a lot bigger than I had realized. And I did not want that problem to know that I had spotted it.

That passage is from Cold Days - Chapter 28.

What he is realising in that moment is that it is far more likely that the Enemy he faces is in far more organisations, perhaps most if not all organisations, and represents a far more formidable and difficult threat. Even though later we understand that Lily was being manipulated, most of her information was sound. I think this passage also helps clear up that not everything that is working for/with the Adversary is necessarily infected. Many are supporters and cat's paws of the really bad guys (which may include Nemesis) - possibly a mixture of the weak seeking strength, the resentful seeking a return to glory, the scared looking for protection and the evil looking for more refined and terrible forms of cruelty and destruction.

[Bad Alias]

"Black Council,” Molly whispered. “Exactly,” I said, which it wasn’t. ... And I did not want that problem to know that I had spotted it.

What I meant was that I couldn't remember what Harry's thinking on it was, but that Molly definitely fingered the Black Council for Nemesis and Harry agreed because he didn't want to show his cards, etc. Molly conflated the Black Council and Nemesis because she doesn't know Nemesis exists but does know the Black Council exists. She is at least half right because the Outsiders require mortal practitioners to let them in, and they used mortal practitioners in the attack on Demonreach.

Basically, what I was saying is that I didn't recall when/how Harry made connections from the Black Council to Nemesis, but Molly definitely made the wrong connection and Harry said yes even though he new the real answer was no in that scene from Cold Days. I don't think he realized it in that scene or had an epiphany. I think he realized it when Lily held his hand (figuratively) and walked him through it.

Note: When I use the term Black Council, I am referring to a group of current and/or former White Council wizards (and maybe lesser mortal practitioners) who are working against the White Council unless otherwise stated.

[Salusen]

I'm fairly certain that the knife was the Spear of Destiny and not anything else in addition to that. (The Holy Lance, also known as the Lance of Longinus (named after Saint Longinus), the Spear of Destiny, or the Holy Spear, according to the Gospel of John, is the lance that pierced the side of Jesus as he hung on the cross). - the great wiki. It can't be the athame Lea got because Amoracchius is the athame's equivalent. The items from Hades' vault had the same power, but much more of it than the Swords.

Oh okay, I see. Yeah I checked out that part in the books. But couldn't we also argue that since athame generally means a ceremonial blade used for spells and etc., the Spear of Destiny used to pierce Jesus' side was one? Like a holier version of the usual athames throughout history? From what I know, just about any blade can become an athame. Or the Athame.

Lea did say the Athame's value lay in whom it once belonged to.


Or am I just foaming at the mouth here? Hahahah. 

[morriswalters]

Morgan le Fay.  Otherwise known as Morgana. 

[Salusen]

Hnh, yeah.