Black Council/The Circle/Nemesis

[morriswalters]

If you are interested, here is a link to a book called Tales of King Arthur and the Round Table on the Gutenberg Project library.  I read this as a child.   God knows why.

I suspect if you live long enough you will see JB's take of the story at some point.  It's not inconceivable that  Margaret is Morgana and that Harry's father is Arthur. She takes him to Avalon upon his death.  That's pure fan service for what it's worth.  I'm pretty sure at this point that Margaret both traveled in time and across the multiverse.  If you buy that then it isn't out of the question.

[Salusen]

If you are interested, here is a link to a book called Tales of King Arthur and the Round Table on the Gutenberg Project library.  I read this as a child.   God knows why.

I suspect if you live long enough you will see JB's take of the story at some point.  It's not inconceivable that  Margaret is Morgana and that Harry's father is Arthur. She takes him to Avalon upon his death.  That's pure fan service for what it's worth.  I'm pretty sure at this point that Margaret both traveled in time and across the multiverse.  If you buy that then it isn't out of the question.

I did wonder how much Margaret Le Fay and Morgana Le Fay had in common. And I admit, at some point, I thought Margaret might very well be Morgana.


Which leads me to a new theory: Could Harry Dresden actually have been the original Merlin? Because you know, if he ever travels back in time in the future books - that is a possibility. Although Demonreach did say  (was it Demonreach who said that?) that the island has had 2 Wardens. Harry obviously being the second one.

[Snark Knight]

So for example, it's possible that Cowl was behind some of the planning that went into the assault on Demonreach island in "Cold Days," but he sure as hell didn't make himself a potential target by riding on any of the barges with the practitioners who were attempting the ritual to bring down the island prison's defences.

Do we actually know that for a certainty? There was a WOJ floating around before Cold Days that Cowl's next appearance would be in CD. It's possible Jim just changed his mind on including him, of course, but if he was one of the summoners on the barges I don't think he'd have much problem rabbiting once the situation got out of hand.

[Bad Alias]

@Snark Knight: I'm pretty sure that's just an example of how Kurtin's theory could play out.

[Yuillegan]

Not to spoil the fun but Bad Alias is right - the Athame (Morgan Le Fay's Athame) that Lea receives is NOT the Spear of Destiny. That would be pretty unlikely considering it was hidden deeply in some part of the Greek Underworld along with several other objects of Christ.

Consider that the Athame itself is still up there with a Sword of the Cross - that still makes it exceptional in it's own right considering what we know of the Swords. Consider also that Amorrachius has also been Excalibur in the age of Merlin...who as we all know instructed Morgan Le Fay. He also had a relationship with Nimue - the Lady of the Lake. She was a sort of fae goddess, I suspect quite likely it was Mab before she was Mab (when she was still a Lady). That puts both instruments in use around the same time.

And Bad Alias - I see what you are saying, just pointing out that Dresden only realised during this book that the Black Council might just be a smaller piece of the puzzle. In saying that - I think the passage I quoted was the first textual piece of exposition where Dresden has his realisation. He may well have had it earlier, but I can't find any passage before that particular one that suggests this might be so.

[Bad Alias]

I can't find any passage before that particular one that suggests this might be so.

That passage just doesn't seem like an "ah ha" moment to me, so I think the ideas Harry expresses in that passage first occurred to him off page. That's just how I read it. I'm not saying that's obviously, definitely the case and no one can disagree.

[kbrizzle]

I always thought of the Circle as a UN of tier 2 baddies - the likes of Madeline Raith & Vito Malvora (the number 2/3/4 etc in every Court) as well as mercenaries like Binder. They are not Nfected but being used as tools by the Adversary.

The Circle in turn is controlled by the Black Council, which has tier 1 baddies like disaffected wizards (Cowl & Peabody), Mavra & Namshiel. These guys are senior management - they are somewhat ideologically committed, or have been Nfected - while they think they are running the plan, they are actually being manipulated by the Outsiders directly.

[Bad Alias]

That's interesting and completely plausible. That's kind of my point that we don't really know who Harry has been fighting and how they are related. Nemesis is pretty vaguely defined as a corrupting outsider influence, and we have no idea what rules it plays by. The Circle is some group Malvora, Madrigal, and Cowl talk about. Technically, it could just be made up by Cowl and not even exist (I don't buy that, but it's possible). The Black Council is just the name Harry came up with for a conspiracy between wizards he suspected were behind a lot of events.

Pretty much everything else about these entities is a guess, so there's a lot of fun here to be had in the guessing and challenging of the guesses.

[kbrizzle]

@Bad Alias
True, we don’t know much about either organization. However in what world would Madeline Raith, Vito Malvora or Binder be able to deal effectively with the likes of Cowl or Peabody or Mavra without being totally manipulated by them? Remember how the ‘fight’ between Lara Raith & Eb goes on Demonreach in TC - a powerful wizard could rip a powerful Whamp or Ramp apart without too much effort (not obviously at the LoON or White Court Elder Level, but then again the 3 I mentioned aren’t in these groups).

[Bad Alias]

Out of the three you mentioned, Binder would be pretty good at not getting totally manipulated by them because of his "only money" stance on payment. The White Court is all about manipulation, so they should have had plenty of practice. (Madeline is probably an exception here because she seems to be the clumsiest Wamp we've seen).

Harry is a pretty powerful wizard and he has had a lot of trouble with each individual you have named and plenty of powerful Ramps. And why would any of them go up against another in a "fair" fight? An ambush is the way to go. Kill them before they get they notice there is any danger.

And even if they are easily manipulated, that doesn't really mean anything about the BC/C/N other than they aren't on the top level of any conspiracy or organizational chart.

[kbrizzle]

@Bad Alias
Agreed - my point was just that there are Tier 1 members like Cowl & Tier 2 members like Vito - we see how this plays out in WN. The point of there being 2 organizations is that the Circle is made up of ambitious, power-hungry #2s who are being ‘helped’ by the more ‘woke’ & powerful Black Council.

The reason I think there are 2 different groups is that it makes more sense organizationally for there to be a group of cats paws (the Circle), who do most of the dirty work & have little connection to the Outsiders (like Madeline Raith); & an organization of believers/ supporters/ Nfected beings who do have a connection to the Outside & are significantly powerful, but not powerful enough to bend the world to their will (like Cowl). There is an odd symmetry to it.

Harry is somewhere in the middle in terms of power level. At this point I don’t think any individual member of the Circle can take him in a straight fight, although I think he would narrowly lose against any individual member of the BC.

[morriswalters]

And why would any of them go up against another in a "fair" fight? An ambush is the way to go. Kill them before they get they notice there is any danger.

“If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.”

[Bad Alias]

@kbrizzle: There are definitely different levels of bad guys. In White Night, it appears that Cowl is in the Circle with Vito maybe being a junior member and Madrigal as an aspiring member. It also appears that Madrigal wasn't going to be long for this world no matter how successful the mission turned out.

@Morris: I'm fairly certain that John Steinbeck never said that.

Slang sense of "be contemptible" first attested 1971 (the underlying notion is of fellatio). Related: Sucked; sucking. Suck eggs is from 1906. Suck hind tit "be inferior" is American English slang first recorded 1940.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/suck. Also, I kinda hate Steinbeck.

[morriswalters]

I managed to get through school and not read anything he wrote. If you don't like it there are variations attributed to others.

[Bad Alias]

"Suck" just didn't seem very "Steinbeck" to me. It also seemed like a modern expression to me. It's been around longer than I have, so who am I to say?

I tried tracking down the source, but I only got of bunch of gun culture stuff that lead me to believe he definitely didn't say it.

You should consider yourself lucky. I ended up having to read one of his books twice.