thoughts on winning the war with the Outsiders

[whitelaughter]

In the latest collection of short stories, Mab calmly lets Molly know that if Molly wants the tithe/tiend stopped, she has to work out how to end the war with the Outsiders.

Brutal, but fair - and raising the question: can the war be won?

The Unseelie protect us from the Outsiders, the Seelie from the Unseelie, so there is the depressing possibility that there is something even worse being held back by the Outsiders, making a true victory impossible.

But assuming that is not the case, or allowing for the possibility of becoming strong enough to take on the new threat:

- Mab doesn't understand technology. Introducing her to 'ferromancy' and the force multipliers thus available could be interesting. Trolls armed with machine guns would be a game changer.

- domains can be created within the Never Never, with their own powers. Could micro-domains bec created at the borders of reality, using those rules to create weapons? Say, a domains that the piles of bones could fall into, keep falling until their speed is many multiples of the speed of sound, and then leave the domain, directed at the advancing armies of Outsiders.

- Mab's armies are probably constantly being driven insane by the Laws: they'll be racking up large amounts of knowledge of the Outside, for one thing. Granted that few of the troops will live long enough for that to be a problem, but (hopefully) some do, and if not improveed weapons and armour will change that.
A useful IoP would be one that the Outsider could put their Lawbreaker levels into, loaning them to newbie troops to help the youngsters survive, and allowing the veterans to keep their sanity a bit longer.

Anything I've missed?

[Sanctaphrax]

Anything I've missed?

Well, God is the obvious one.

And then there's magic. Dresden is apparently a "starborn", which gives him some power over Outsiders. Perhaps whatever principle or process makes that possible can be pushed further.

Heroic action is another possibility. Maybe all that's needed is the right person, in the right place, at the right time. We really know nothing about how the Outside works, after all.

- Mab doesn't understand technology. Introducing her to 'ferromancy' and the force multipliers thus available could be interesting. Trolls armed with machine guns would be a game changer.

Possible. Thematically, it'd make some sense. Human ingenuity defeats primordial chaos.

- domains can be created within the Never Never, with their own powers. Could micro-domains bec created at the borders of reality, using those rules to create weapons? Say, a domains that the piles of bones could fall into, keep falling until their speed is many multiples of the speed of sound, and then leave the domain, directed at the advancing armies of Outsiders.

I'm pretty sure nothing like this will happen, though. A weird physics trick is not likely to end a cosmic struggle. I mean, narratively that's just totally unsatisfying.

- Mab's armies are probably constantly being driven insane by the Laws: they'll be racking up large amounts of knowledge of the Outside, for one thing. Granted that few of the troops will live long enough for that to be a problem, but (hopefully) some do, and if not improveed weapons and armour will change that.

The Laws are a mortal thing, I don't think they matter at all to faerie troops.

[whitelaughter]

Well, God is the obvious one.

Except that the Dresdenverse God seems solely interested in protecting free will, which neither side has; Mab regards him as 'the White God' ie merely a god of morality, not the Creator, so there's no particularly reason why He should come to her aid.
However, Molly might want to deal directly with Uriel: and that could get interesting.

And then there's magic. Dresden is apparently a "starborn", which gives him some power over Outsiders. Perhaps whatever principle or process makes that possible can be pushed further.

Sheer numbers come into play here. Wizards are rare; the scale of the one battle Dresden saw blew his mind.

Heroic action is another possibility. Maybe all that's needed is the right person, in the right place, at the right time. We really know nothing about how the Outside works, after all.

Jim might well write something like that, but - numbers. It's frankly unbelievable.

I'm pretty sure nothing like this will happen, though. A weird physics trick is not likely to end a cosmic struggle. I mean, narratively that's just totally unsatisfying.

Wars tend to be like that. Granted, nothing like this is likely to occur in the series, but armies being slaughtered by new developments is historically common.

The Laws are a mortal thing, I don't think they matter at all to faerie troops.

Possibly not, but given that the Fae are often ex-mortals, I wouldn't bank on it. If nothing else, it might be possibly to siphon Lawbreaking off mortals to strengthen Fae troops.

[Sanctaphrax]

Except that the Dresdenverse God seems solely interested in protecting free will, which neither side has; Mab regards him as 'the White God' ie merely a god of morality, not the Creator, so there's no particularly reason why He should come to her aid.

The Outside is, ultimately, after humanity.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Outside defeated Winter and was then destroyed by God or humanity.

Sheer numbers come into play here. Wizards are rare; the scale of the one battle Dresden saw blew his mind.

...

Jim might well write something like that, but - numbers. It's frankly unbelievable.

Numbers, shmumbers.

Look at how the Red Court went down.

Wars tend to be like that. Granted, nothing like this is likely to occur in the series, but armies being slaughtered by new developments is historically common.

The war between inside and Outside isn't so similar to historical wars.

If it was decided by new developments, they wouldn't take the form of magitechnological advances.

[whitelaughter]

The war between inside and Outside isn't so similar to historical wars.

Despite the description we get of what is functionally a pre-gunpowder battle? With unit formations, maneuvers, an ambush?

[g33k]

I don't see "winning" the war, really.  You'd have to end the threat of the Outsiders.

Which either means bringing them all into Creation & killing/imprisoning them here -- and all the mommy-Outsiders, too, so they can't make more of them Out There -- or taking the war Outside and defeating them there.

I don't really see any of that happening; not even with the Demonreach imprisonment system.

I don't expect the Outsiders to even follow the normal-ish rules that would allow tech to be all that advantageous.  Marginally so, maybe; but if I was a bettin' man, I'd bet that a belly full o' lead (or inherited silver) wouldn't slow down the average Outsider much, if any.
 

[Sanctaphrax]

Despite the description we get of what is functionally a pre-gunpowder battle? With unit formations, maneuvers, an ambush?

Despite that.

Ultimately, this is a battle between cosmic forces. It's not reasonable to treat it as a normal war.

[Salusen]

Isn't the only plausible way to defeat the Outsiders is to forget them? Seems like the truly only exist within mortal knowledge. So if humans were to totally forget them, they would fade to Oblivion.

On the other hand...

[backseat_adventurer]

I hope people don't mind me posting since it's been a while but I'm new and this topic really grabbed my interest.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the war with the Outside is one we want to see won.  By 'we' I mean not just us as readers but also the beings living in the Dresdenverse.

So why not for us readers?  It goes back to our love of the Dresdenverse.  We love it as it is with all the power struggles, factions and supernatural goings-on.  Massively change the setting and suddenly fans lose a large part of what made them fans.  This doesn't discount fans using AUs in games and fanfic or inventing new struggles for the 'new' world but still, it's a bit of a damper on things.  In the back of your mind you always know the WoJ nixed the world you love.  Or at least greatly changed its paradigm.

Now for the characters in-world.  To be honest, if the Outside is permanently barred from the world forevermore, we'd better hope the Faerie Courts and the bulk of the supernatural nasties get squashed in the process.  Otherwise... well, where is Mab going to get her kicks?  Titania would have to get into it and all the consequences of one Court winning would happen.  Other supernatural factions would breakdown or form causing mass carnage over years.  Maybe God intercedes, maybe a struggle for power erupts, maybe magic is outed, etc.  Now, even if the supernaturals get eradicated (and I really dislike the shades of genocide here), what happens later on?  Somehow I doubt the Outsiders are going to be cowed for long and they have all eternity.  Earth probably won't be ready for recommencement and will be devoid of their protections.  Either way you look at it, for the average person, or even our favorite characters, 'winning' the Outsider War, isn't necessarily a good thing.

The series really promotes the concept of a supernatural 'balance of power'.  The write-up for Las Vegas in the Paranet Papers really typifies this.  The series is also strongly behind the concept of freewill in that you can do what you want... at a price.  Sometimes the price is higher than you know and there will be consequences.  Given that Harry has a tendency to upend the status quo, to questionable benefit, I think we'll probably see a huge change in the status of the War.  Will it be won?  A better seal placed on the Gates?  Who knows.

I just hope that the ending doesn't completely upend the Dresdenverse.  Add new conflicts, new goals?  Great!  Just not make it unrecognizable with a Pyrrhic victory.

[Sanctaphrax]

I hope people don't mind me posting since it's been a while but I'm new and this topic really grabbed my interest.

Forum being as quiet as it is, there's no need to worry about necromancy.

To be honest, I'm not sure if the war with the Outside is one we want to see won.  By 'we' I mean not just us as readers but also the beings living in the Dresdenverse.

So why not for us readers?  It goes back to our love of the Dresdenverse.  We love it as it is with all the power struggles, factions and supernatural goings-on.  Massively change the setting and suddenly fans lose a large part of what made them fans.  This doesn't discount fans using AUs in games and fanfic or inventing new struggles for the 'new' world but still, it's a bit of a damper on things.  In the back of your mind you always know the WoJ nixed the world you love.  Or at least greatly changed its paradigm.

Now for the characters in-world.  To be honest, if the Outside is permanently barred from the world forevermore, we'd better hope the Faerie Courts and the bulk of the supernatural nasties get squashed in the process.  Otherwise... well, where is Mab going to get her kicks?  Titania would have to get into it and all the consequences of one Court winning would happen.  Other supernatural factions would breakdown or form causing mass carnage over years.  Maybe God intercedes, maybe a struggle for power erupts, maybe magic is outed, etc.  Now, even if the supernaturals get eradicated (and I really dislike the shades of genocide here), what happens later on?  Somehow I doubt the Outsiders are going to be cowed for long and they have all eternity.  Earth probably won't be ready for recommencement and will be devoid of their protections.  Either way you look at it, for the average person, or even our favorite characters, 'winning' the Outsider War, isn't necessarily a good thing.

The series really promotes the concept of a supernatural 'balance of power'.  The write-up for Las Vegas in the Paranet Papers really typifies this.  The series is also strongly behind the concept of freewill in that you can do what you want... at a price.  Sometimes the price is higher than you know and there will be consequences.  Given that Harry has a tendency to upend the status quo, to questionable benefit, I think we'll probably see a huge change in the status of the War.  Will it be won?  A better seal placed on the Gates?  Who knows.

I just hope that the ending doesn't completely upend the Dresdenverse.  Add new conflicts, new goals?  Great!  Just not make it unrecognizable with a Pyrrhic victory.

One way or another, I think the setting's gonna be made unrecognisable. Jim has talked many times about the "big apocalyptic trilogy" at the end of the series, after all.

That aside, the Outside seems to be outside (no pun intended) the normal balance-of-power considerations. It's just plain bad. It's shown no redeeming qualities, and Outsiders seem inhuman enough that totally eradicating them wouldn't be particularly similar to genocide. So if I were a Dresdenverse mortal, I'd definitely want it gone.

[backseat_adventurer]

Forum being as quiet as it is, there's no need to worry about necromancy.

Good to know I don't have to award myself the Lawbreaker power

One way or another, I think the setting's gonna be made unrecognisable. Jim has talked many times about the "big apocalyptic trilogy" at the end of the series, after all.

Yeah, I figured that because it couldn't be true to Harry's character if he didn't upend it all.  I confess to still hoping. 

That aside, the Outside seems to be outside (no pun intended) the normal balance-of-power considerations. It's just plain bad. It's shown no redeeming qualities, and Outsiders seem inhuman enough that totally eradicating them wouldn't be particularly similar to genocide. So if I were a Dresdenverse mortal, I'd definitely want it gone.

Outsiders do seem to tamper with the status quo, particularly with their power to allow creatures to act outside of their natures (no pun intended there, either).  That said, I've often thought that the Laws of Magic and the general state of the Dresdenverse felt like the product of diplomatic negotiations where nobody gets what they really want.  So, the Powers That Be (God maybe?) played the long game with the Outside, using pawns.

Why didn't the PTB do better to protect the world?  Maybe because of the importance of mortal free will, and being unable to act against their own nature to preserve this?  Bah, lots of conjecture but fun to consider.

The bit about supernatural genocide was more about the aftermath of a world where the Gates are permanently closed.  Perhaps the supernaturals get killed in the final battle, or perhaps they fall to infighting.  So, more like the Fae and Old Gods rather than Outsiders.  Sorry for any confusion.

[whitelaughter]

To be honest, I'm not sure if the war with the Outside is one we want to see won.  By 'we' To be honest, if the Outside is permanently barred from the world forevermore, we'd better hope the Faerie Courts and the bulk of the supernatural nasties get squashed in the process.  Otherwise... well, where is Mab going to get her kicks?   

Yes, this something that interests me.

Winter exists to protect 'us' from the Outside, Summer to protect us from Winter. If Winter is no longer tied down by the need to fight the Outside, then Summer is utterly outclassed....

....unless they merge with humanity. Modern human armies, equipped with the latest tech and protected by Seelie spells, would be sufficient to maintain the balance of power with the Unseelie - and see off most other threats.

It would also, from the moral framework of the books, be *good*.  Freedom is meaningless without choices; it would increase free will if all children began as changelings and could then chose whether to be mortal, fae, or remain as changelings.
Such a society would also have a religious renaissance; anybody with supernatural abilities could easily detect whether the local pastor has Bless This House - so only the truly faithful would be listened to. It wouldn't be difficult to design an audible illusion that 'bleeped' anyone speaking, but set to a level so that the faithful suppressed the spell, allowing them to preach.