Any news on Peace Talks

[Dina]

But he always was a hero in the eyes of his fans, from the very beginning.  Remember before he was introduced he stood up for the truth of his scientific findings at great cost.  Yes, he relented some, but so did Galileo so he'd have some career left.   In Dead Beat, scared out of his mind, yes, but willing to help Harry as best he could.  "Polka will never die!"

I want to clap at this 

[KurtinStGeorge]

huh?

Shiro was Buddhist, not even one of the People of the Book.  Sanya calls himself an atheist, but admits to -- maybe -- being agnostic (when pressed).

I mean, Jesus was a Jew!  Matthew 1:1 also cites him as from the line of Kings, the Davidic house (regarding the importance of which, note how Jim is going to great lengths to demonstrate how important a Kingly lineage is).

A whole bunch of "Christian" words -- like "Messiah" and "Hallelujah" -- are Hebrew.  All those -el names, Raphael, Uriel, Michael... they come from Hebrew, where "-el" means "of God."

During Jesus' lifetime (and his direct disciples) "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism; specifically, the sect that believed the prophesied Messiah had in fact arrived.

There's STILL groups like "Messianic Jews" (some of whom are mere revanchist Christians (trying to proselytize the unconverted Jews), but some are genuine practicing Jews who believe the Messiah has come and given them a New Testament).

Are you going back to that whole "Jews killed Jesus, and therefore are Eeeevil!" rationalization?

I agree with what you said here.  However, what I found odd; maybe incongruous is a better word, was when Butters attached a red cross from a first aid kit (I think) to his improvised knight outfit.  I get the idea that he's now one of the Knights of the Cross, but I don't think Sanya does this.  If Butters had decided to stick a Star of David to his Knight outfit, I think that would have made more sense, unless he's been converted to Catholicism or some other flavor of Christianity. 

I'm thinking about what Shiro told Harry about God seeing hearts not labels.  Butters should have been true to his personal identity, not try to blend in, in order fit in with his new job.   

[morriswalters]

I feel like I'm attacking motherhood or the Queen. However, Jim pivots from the swords being important, to making swordplay moot.  Butter's can't have a sword fight. 

[KurtinStGeorge]

I feel like I'm attacking motherhood or the Queen. However, Jim pivots from the swords being important, to making swordplay moot.  Butter's can't have a sword fight.

...he can if someone else can get the same thing or  something very similar.  I know that sounds silly, but why not? 

Actually, I think Butters is going to have to be a different kind of Knight.  One who relies more on ingenuity and subtlety that brute force.

[Dina]

I agree. Also, Butters have faith in the red cross or, better, in what it represents. Yes, the origin is the Christian symbol, but now it stands for medicine and hellping people in most parts of the world and clearly in USA, so Butter grew up with that meaning. He has literally served under that sign for years. Besides, Butters is not obtuse. Whatever his faith he knows the importance of symbols, and knights like Arthur's round table ones are powerful symbols.

[Mira]

I agree. Also, Butters have faith in the red cross or, better, in what it represents. Yes, the origin is the Christian symbol, but now it stands for medicine and hellping people in most parts of the world and clearly in USA, so Butter grew up with that meaning. He has literally served under that sign for years. Besides, Butters is not obtuse. Whatever his faith he knows the importance of symbols, and knights like Arthur's round table ones are powerful symbols.

  I  don't think it is about what religion is followed by the Knight,  as in Sanya's case, it is none.   Butters isn't a Christian, but he is faithful, the Sword that he wields is about faith not what door he chooses to walk through to get to God.

[morriswalters]

The medical symbol is the Caduceus, not a cross.  And the Red Cross is symbolic of the Swiss Flag where the International Red Cross was founded.  The cross is a symbol of the crucifix, wherein the three nails affixed to the swords are thought to be from. And since the rules expressly forbid taking this any further I'll stop.

I hope Butter's story line works out.  Jim can't unwrite it.

[noblehunter]

To skip back a few topics, I think Peace Talks will be a sort of test for Butcher. So far, he's avoided the bloat that afflicts many long running series but it's been partially due to the fact that the series since Harry's death hasn't involved a lot of politics. There's been some expansive world building, notably regarding the Outer Gates, but not much time spent on what the world looks like since the end of the Red Court. Peace Talks looks like it will break from that trend which risks turning into a sprawling mess of plots and counter-plots. Which is a bit ironic given that I've been waiting years to get info about the new balance of power but if writing was easy everyone would do it.

[dspringer1]

The swords, like Mouse, like pretty much any really significant power - are incredible and unstoppable in the right circumstances. Mouse powered up by the Carpenter house is much stronger than when powered up by Dresden's poor threshold ("from the Thing to the Hulk" WOJ). The Archangels and the Mothers and the Walkers are incredibly powerful, but only in very specific situations. Choice seems to unlock the power, but so does destiny (which one could argue is the result of a line of choices - no wonder you can't fight fate). Harry was never a Knight of the Cross, and so could never wield a blade like one. Although I do admit, Jim does seem to vary the powers of the Swords a lot. Early Michael was way less powerful than later Michael, despite the damaged leg. Karen makes them all look pitiful, and despite Shiro supposedly being a Sword-Saint we never saw him unleash the way Karen did. Sanya is as true KotC but has he ever been as strong as the others? A good argument might be that Jim needed to super-charge them for the writing later in the series as events demanded. Also perhaps one could argue as the stakes get higher, so does the power of the swords increase (we are getting close to the end of the world).

This was explained in one of the books.  The power of the knights (or the swords if you like) is not fixed.   Their purpose is to balance the scales so that human skill, will and morality will decide the battle, not supernatural power.  So if the knight needs to fight two vampires, you get power X.   If the knight needs to battle a frigging dragon, he gets power 5X. 

I suspect there is a range of possible power.  A knight can probably easily kill any normal vampire 1-1, so there seems to be a minimum power level.   And the top end a knight can channel also appears to be limited.   Murphy was apparently a VERY powerful knight in Changes, while Sanya appears to be of more typical Knight power.  And even Murphy and Sanya together were insufficient to beat all the vampires in that last battle.  Not even close. 

[g33k]

This was explained in one of the books.  The power of the knights (or the swords if you like) is not fixed.   Their purpose is to balance the scales ...
...   And even Murphy and Sanya together were insufficient to beat all the vampires in that last battle.  Not even close.

In fact, Murphy and Sanya DID beat all the Vampires:  they were sufficient to stop them from reaching Harry in time to stop HIM.

As you say, they have however much power they need to "balance" the conflict.

[Dina]

The medical symbol is the Caduceus, not a cross.  And the Red Cross is symbolic of the Swiss Flag where the International Red Cross was founded.  The cross is a symbol of the crucifix, wherein the three nails affixed to the swords are thought to be from. And since the rules expressly forbid taking this any further I'll stop.

I hope Butter's story line works out.  Jim can't unwrite it.

Well, most of us are ok with Butter's story. And you don't need to patronize me. You know what I meant. If you see a box with a red cross in most places in the world you don't think inside you will find a bible and holy water, you know there is a first aid kit with gauze, band aids and other things you use to heal. That is why I said that I know the origin is the Christian symbol but now it stands for medicine.

[Fcrate]

I don't like Butters' upgrade, however, I think that Jim needed it to consolidate more power firmly in Harry's corner as the challenges get tougher and the fights become on a larger scale. It seems unlikely to me that he'll ever be a knight on par with Sanya or Michael, but a little upgrade in addition to his smarts are good enough for him to become a valuable ally instead of a fun character that patches up corpses, and on occasion Harry.

[Yuillegan]

This was explained in one of the books.  The power of the knights (or the swords if you like) is not fixed.   Their purpose is to balance the scales so that human skill, will and morality will decide the battle, not supernatural power.  So if the knight needs to fight two vampires, you get power X.   If the knight needs to battle a frigging dragon, he gets power 5X. 

I suspect there is a range of possible power.  A knight can probably easily kill any normal vampire 1-1, so there seems to be a minimum power level.   And the top end a knight can channel also appears to be limited.   Murphy was apparently a VERY powerful knight in Changes, while Sanya appears to be of more typical Knight power.  And even Murphy and Sanya together were insufficient to beat all the vampires in that last battle.  Not even close.

It was explained somewhat in the books, in a rather vague way. Never so clearly as the Swords balance the fight. If anything, the closest explanation is it gives the Knight a chance of victory, which is incredible enough anyway but not the same as matching the foe.

If it really does in fact make the knights power up to a certain level, based on the enemy in front of them, then why were three Knights needed to take on Ursiel? As I say I think it gives them a chance, which is good, but if you want to maximise your chances you have as much help as you can get.
 
I also am not so taken with the idea that some Knights are greater in power than others. True, some Knights are more talented and skilled warriors than others - Shiro was clearly the most dangerous warrior early on. But the true purpose of the Knights is not as mere swordsmen, but as saviours and guardians. They are meant to help. I do think the character of Sanya is constantly weirdly nerfed by Jim - he is often clumsy, hardly a tornado of warrior power, and rarely seems to go toe-to-toe with any villain on his own. Is this because he is agnostic? I can't imagine so as Shiro ascribed to multiple belief systems and Butters is Jewish! I think it is more down to poor character development and being overshadowed in pivotal scenes by other characters. Also, I think if Murphy and Sanya were meant to beat all those Vampires they would have. I think that is precisely how their game works.

[morriswalters]

Well, most of us are ok with Butter's story. And you don't need to patronize me.

I'm sorry that you took it that way.

Any reading of Changes suggesting that the Knights balanced the table at Chechen Itza seems a little nearsighted.  Harry is shitting kittens thinking he has led his allies to their deaths. Had the Knights been able to run the table, Susan needn't have died.  Harry killed every vampire everywhere. god was late to the game and purely local.

As an extra added attraction for the Butter's story line he had to mug Murphy, again.  She is apparently Jim's torture doll.  While Butters was carving the dead Murphy got mind raped.  Lost her career and got demoted. Got dumped at the boat and abandoned in place to cope with the Fomor and the White Vamps. And got a bad knee and a rep as a sword breaker. Kincaid broke her arm, but at least he showed her a good time. Oh yeah and she got puppeted by an angel.  She deserved a larger cut of the diamonds.  And the sword.

[Bad Alias]

When I was young lurid book covers worked as well as anything.

...

@Bad Alias

One of the better things about the books is that Jim will retcon if it makes the story stronger.  Keeping too much technology out kills the story.

I didn't read a book once because of it's ridiculous cover art. Years later, my brother highly recommended the book. I ended up loving it.

Agreed. And he usually manages to do it well enough that the inconsistency can be explained away.

On Butters and such. I always assumed Shiro was Shinto. Death Masks doesn't specifically mention what religion he was before he "converted." Shiro serves "Heaven. Or the divine in nature. The memory of my fathers past. My fellow man. Myself. All pieces of the same thing."

Sanya isn't an atheist. He's a Trotskiest. "Because it must be done. ... For the good of the people, some must place themselves in harm's way. some must pledge their courage and their lives to protect the community." That's what he believes in.

I don't know what kind of Jew Butters is. There are a lot of atheist Jews and a lot of pious Jews, but Butters faith is in stories.

Uriel: I must admit I never foresaw that particular form of faith being expressed under my purview.
Harry: Belief in a freaking movie?
Uriel: Belief in a story, of good confronting evil, of light overcoming darkness, of love transcending hate. Isn't that where all faith begins?
Harry: Huh. Lot of Star Wars fans out there. Maybe more Star Wars fans than Catholics.
Uriel: I liked the music.

For the Knights, it isn't about what religion they are; it's not about faces, skin, flags, membership lists, files. "God sees hearts." It's about what they believe in.

With that context, it would make sense for Butters to where a red cross. The imagery of a knight would appeal to Butters.