Author Topic: Some exposition I may have missed.  (Read 6802 times)

Offline cptnspldng

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Some exposition I may have missed.
« on: October 31, 2018, 01:18:30 AM »
OK, I have read and/or listened to all the books and attendant short stories and novellas and I feel that I may have missed a particular plot point OR has our author still been holding out on us?

We 'know' because Harry has told us that Justin DuMorne was rendered into a crispy critter at the hands of Harry Dresden because he has informed us of the fact many times. We 'know' that Elaine was also presumed dead in the same conflagration. WHERE in all the books have we been presented with a detailed retelling of these events (a la the detailed remembrances of "Ghost Story") of Harry's fatal confrontation with his mentor?

Did I read it and just shunt the details aside in order to get on with the immediate peril in whatever story these details were presented in? If JB is still withholding relevant details from us, fine. We'll get the straight poop from him when he deigns to release the info and not before, but if I have truly missed the detailed retelling, please direct me to the appropriate tome.

In the first person storytelling mode we're experiencing, it makes sense that Harry is reluctant to divulge every detail of his last confrontation with his ward and mentor but when can we expect to see it? Is this the big choice that Harry makes in the "Mirror, Mirror" book? To follow Justin down the left hand path? Or later to succumb to the wolf belt in "Fool Moon?"

Now I'm branching off into other secenarios and I'm losing my original point. Harry vs. Justin, the final battle. Have we seen any detailed recounting of the events or are we all taking Harry's second hand word for the account of the events?

Your input would be appreciated.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2018, 03:41:35 AM »
In the first person storytelling mode we're experiencing, it makes sense that Harry is reluctant to divulge every detail of his last confrontation with his ward and mentor but when can we expect to see it? Is this the big choice that Harry makes in the "Mirror, Mirror" book? To follow Justin down the left hand path? Or later to succumb to the wolf belt in "Fool Moon?"

Jim's plot tease for MM was that the divergence started with the "big choice at the end of Grave Peril".

The readers have, to some extent, disagreed on exactly which big choice that was. The leading candidates were whether to tell Susan he loved her, whether to accept Ortega and Bianca's deal to give up Susan in exchange for peace, whether to fight or flea at Bianca's masquerade (which is stretching the definition of 'end' of the book since it's only about the 2/3 mark) or possibly whether to trust Thomas when he returns Amoracchius.

That last seems like less of an obvious big choice, but I've argued the case that it's potentially at least as consequential in terms of setting Harry's path afterward as the others.

As for a full flashback of Harry roasting Justin, though, no you haven't missed one. JB hasn't detailed that, and there's probably some reason. I'm hoping it's not a "Justin faked his death" reveal, though.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2018, 02:05:55 PM »
We 'know' because Harry has told us that Justin DuMorne was rendered into a crispy critter at the hands of Harry Dresden because he has informed us of the fact many times. We 'know' that Elaine was also presumed dead in the same conflagration. WHERE in all the books have we been presented with a detailed retelling of these events (a la the detailed remembrances of "Ghost Story") of Harry's fatal confrontation with his mentor?

Did I read it and just shunt the details aside in order to get on with the immediate peril in whatever story these details were presented in? If JB is still withholding relevant details from us, fine. We'll get the straight poop from him when he deigns to release the info and not before, but if I have truly missed the detailed retelling, please direct me to the appropriate tome.
We haven't seen the actual confrontation. The closest there's been (which might not even count) is in one of the comic books, I think "Welcome to the Jungle," which shows a few flashback panels of Harry, staff and rod in hand, facing off against Justin (whose cobra-head staff really should've been a giveaway as to which side he was on, really), with Elaine tied up in her skivvies at Justin's feet.

The confrontation takes place in an open field, and all we really see of the "fight" is Harry diving out of the way of a blast and firing back while in mid air, a la Max Paine.

How this reconciles with the bits of description we've seen elsewhere in the books is up in the air.
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Offline cptnspldng

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2018, 08:45:16 PM »
Thanks for the responses. My memory isn't anything to be trusted these days.
Look, he said to his imagination, if this is how you're going to behave, I shan't bring you again.
(Terry Pratchett, "Going Postal")

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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2018, 08:49:45 PM »
No problem.

My attempt to reconcile that depiction with the other descriptions runs sorta like:

Harry runs back, staff and rod in hand, and calls Justin out for a duel. Justin answers, coming out with Elaine tied up and in her skivvies as a distraction for Harry, which works -- either Justin wins the duel outright, or Elaine "betrays" Harry here and binds him.

Either way, Justin brings Harry inside and Elaine has him bound while Justin begins work on the enthralling spell. Harry then realizes that he can break out of Elaine's binding because, as he said in Summer Knight, he designed it. He blasts his way out of the binding and burns the house down, killing Justin.
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Offline apgrey

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2018, 10:04:36 PM »
  Justin tried to do some type of mind control magic on Harry.  He for the most part failed, and Harry killed him.
  But it may be that Harry suffered some mental damage.  His memories from when he fled from Justin until he finally killed Justin seem shaky, as though parts of the experience are blocked from his mind.  This period was when he was with the Leanansidhe, and the impression I got was it might have been as much as a couple of weeks.
  This whole experience has never really been clearly laid out in the books.

APG

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2018, 01:46:42 AM »
cptnspldng - I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist here. I don't believe Justin died as it never happened on screen. In fact - Harry so rarely goes into detail about that fight (remembering the ENTIRE SERIES is him talking about his past, it is almost like he is avoiding it on purpose). I have a few reasons why that night is a blur - remember Harry didn't even recollect his encounter with the Walker HWWBH until he was dead and the Leanansidhe showed him. I am of the opinion that:
1. Harry (the narrator) recalls that at the time did not properly remember that fight (even if he thought he did - that's the tricky thing about memory).
2. Harry doesn't recall that fight as it truly was for more than mundane reasons (e.g. PTSD, poor memory recording abilities etc.) but because of interference (perhaps by himself, a time-traveler, some other monster/being or perhaps Justin himself). Never forget that while the binding on his body was one Harry himself had figured out, Justin was getting in his head even then.

Mr Death is correct in that the fight is in two parts (mostly because of inconsistency on JB's part). Part 1 is when he comes home from school and find Elaine being weird on the couch and Justin tries to convince him willingly into the fold, they fight and he uses the force of Justin's spell to smash him out a window and escape. Justin then sends the Walker to kill him (though it is implied and Harry muses that perhaps it was the Walker running the show) and he defeats the Walker - with a mixture of magic fire and gas explosion (which even Dresden later realises should not have worked - especially when you take into account this thing is supposed to be Uriel-level). Harry then goes back angry and duels Justin and is subdued by Elaine's binding. Justin then attempts to perform some strange ritual involving Harry consuming human blood for an unknown purpose, Harry breaks free and then...we only know that Harry uses fire to burn the house down. We have no other information. We never even had a body of either Elaine or Justin. Harry presumes them both dead for many years until Grave Peril where he has a dream where he realises Elaine might be alive. Then she shows up in the next book, a year-ish later. We only have Harry's word that Justin died (which was highly doubted at the time). Justin is Dead in Harry's mind because he wants it that way. Not because it is. See that whole passage about eye witness accounts in the series/remember Harry was just as sure Elaine was dead.

But I am of the opinion that considering how much Jim has said he is dead, he probably isn't. Jim wants to throw us off the scent. Not to mention Jim has said Death is a squishy line in the Dresdenverse. More like a threshold, you can cross and come back. Few do it, but it can be done. Not to mention, we know from the series that once you cross that threshold, you don't just stop existing. You go into the varying levels of the afterlife, beginning at being a spirit/ghost and moving on into the varying Heaven's and Hell's and all the inbetweens. Also Mab has said Death is not black but grey, it is a spectrum not a line. Which makes a lot of sense really.

So even if Justin is dead or has died - that is not to say he has stopped existing or is not involved in events behind the scenes. He may have not died, or he may have resurrected himself, or perhaps he works as a ghost or somesuch. But believe me, he isn't out for the count. He had a plan.
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Offline Avernite

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2018, 06:54:48 PM »
It would be a bit weird for Harry to have lived years under the Doom of Damocles for not-even-killing Justin. Why would the Council consider him a Warlock? I thought they could detect black magic to some extent.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2018, 07:03:30 PM »
I'm also reasonably sure that Bob makes reference to them finding a body at the scene -- specifically, trying to poke holes in Harry thinking Elaine died by saying they only found one body.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2018, 01:44:35 AM »
It would be a bit weird for Harry to have lived years under the Doom of Damocles for not-even-killing Justin. Why would the Council consider him a Warlock? I thought they could detect black magic to some extent.

Yeah, he would have been soulgazed by the Wardens before trial, plus Ebenezar to see if he was still salvageable before taking on his probation. I can't see both sets of professionals missing the distinction between someone who'd fought with lethal intent but the target got away, vs someone who had actually recently taken a life.

And given that fire hurts ghosts and naked souls just as well as it does living flesh, burning is a tough one to come back from via Corpsetaker's methods.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2018, 04:09:15 AM »
Weird it might be - but it isn't strictly speaking Black Magic. There is a loop hole for self-defence, hence the Doom. Not to mention, they never accused him of Black Magic either then or when he burned the Velvet Room. He specifically is in trouble for killing (the first time). And as I said, even if he DID kill Justin, doesn't mean Justin is non-existent or not part of goings on. Doesn't even mean he is dead. I mean he literally pulled the magic research assistant from a Necromancers lair AND didn't tell the council.

Mr Death - could you find that passage? I cannot find it myself...

Soulgazes are measures of truth telling, sure. But they arn't an exact science. Harry could honestly believe he was telling the truth; the Soulgaze doesn't tell you exactly what happened.

Just to correct you there Snark Knight, fire hurts Corporeal Ghosts. Doesn't effect non-corporeal (i.e. sane ghosts). Doesn't hurt a naked soul either, otherwise everyone who burned to death would end up in a state of Oblivion. Don't believe there has been any example of it hurting the non-corporeal. All fire is said to do is have a spiritual element which makes it effective against magic - a cleansing element. But that is Harry's perspective. Never forget the time Harry and Bob came across the runes on the island and realised just how out of their depth they BOTH were.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2018, 04:46:08 AM »
Mr Death - could you find that passage? I cannot find it myself...
It's in Fool Moon, and it's not Bob, it's Id Harry:

Quote
"She's still alive," my double said. "You know she is."
"She died in the fire," I said. "She was unconscious. She couldn't have lived through it."
"You'd have known if she died. And they never found a second set of bones."
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Offline cptnspldng

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2018, 07:41:31 PM »
The other seminal point that is missing (although we've been informed of its occurrence) is the whole acquisition of Bob. Was Harry aware of Bob's existence at any point prior to the fatal confrontation with Dumorne?  Did Harry have to fight to claim Bob's allegiance? Did Bob play hard to get? Is Ebenezer aware of Bob's existence and if not, how did Harry manage to hide Bob in all the years he was in Ebenezer's care?

I guess this is the problem when ya get engrossed with a fictional story. The details matter and they aren't always available.
Look, he said to his imagination, if this is how you're going to behave, I shan't bring you again.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2018, 08:07:16 PM »
Bob can't play hard to get. I have no idea where Bob was while Harry was with Ebeneezer.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Some exposition I may have missed.
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2018, 11:17:51 PM »
Bob can't play hard to get. I have no idea where Bob was while Harry was with Ebeneezer.
According to the RPG at least, Harry buried him in a hole and dug him back up after leaving Ebenezer.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast