Molly

[forumghost]

Bob is somewhat pessimistic because he only saw weak willed knights, he did not give Harry any chance at all.

Bob wasn't talking about the Knights when he said that though? He was talking about the Ladies.

That is a restriction but she is supposed to work around it. Maeve did not fulfill her role as a good little robot for about 150 years before Nemesis got her.

How does one work around a restriction of "My body is literally puppeted like I'm Kermit the Frog if I don't do this on my own?" exactly? Maeve got away with it because Mab was babying her and not asking her to actually do her job properly.

Which is also a far too negative description based on Harry’s unreliable narrative. Molly has a purpose, an important job to do and fulfilling your purpose is not slavery. Ask Uriel. Ask Gard.

Lets see... She was 'recruited' against her will without knowledge and consent, her mind, body and even her soul warped for this purpose. She is forced to serve to the point where if she tries not to, her body will literally do it on it's own. Sure sounds like enslavement to me, for all of Mab's claims otherwise.

It is not a waste of her life. She actually has an important role in the defense of us all. Well her parents decided to have children in that dangerous world so the rest is a result of their free willed choice.

Now this is actually true. She has an important task to complete that is vital to the security of reality. But she's still a slave, just like Mab might fill an essential role and still be a Monster.

[morriswalters]

We are all slaves to duty.  A member of the military goes off to war.  He knows he can die, yet he goes anyway.  And that choice ruins all too many of them, either physically or mentally.  But most come home and go on with their lives.  For both Harry and Molly the mantle can be seen as a metaphor for that type of choice.  They have a chance to remain true to themselves and retain their essential humanity.

And I find Mab a much more sympathetic character than most.  Of the two Queens she has the harder task.  If she fails than reality itself is at risk.  It appears that she retains some essential part of whatever humanity she might have once had.  She suffered Maeve even at the cost to her task, and felt anger when her child was at risk.  Unlike Harry she did not have the luxury of roasting marshmallows in the fires of the apocalypse.  And even at the end she couldn't act herself.

Anyway for good or bad that is how I internalize this part of the story.

[peregrine]

The thing is, a member of the military does not have to go off to war.  They can desert, they can fake something, they can injure themselves, they can maybe just resign or muster out, they can even suicide.  Not great choices, with varying levels of dire consequences, but still a choice.

A Queen of the fae has no choice.  They have some flexibility in their actions, yes, they're not automatons.  But they cannot choose not to do those things.  There is no choice allowed.

[forumghost]

Exactly. Molly isn't much like a soldier adhering to duty at all, because soldiers aren't typically recruited by force and had their minds and bodies warped uptil it's physically impossible for them not to obey.

Seriously, the Mantles are some messed up shit. Like, we going all 1984 up in this.

[morriswalters]

Obviously you have never stood for the draft.

Having said that.   Mab actually speaks to this.

To fulfill one's purpose is not to be a slave, my daughter.

Someone has to guard the gates.  And this is Winter's purpose.  And that purpose must be served at whatever cost.  And Harry's choices and Molly's, put her on that hill where what could happen did in fact happen.  And Mab shoves that fact in his face during that exchange on the hill.

Do you think that Harry has had any choice in what he has "chosen" to do?  In his own way he is bond by a mantle just as heavy as Mab's.  And yes the Winter Mantle is some messed up shit.  So is having to fight a war with no end.  Where you send your allies off to be slaughtered on a battlefield covered in the bones of it's victims.  Mother Summer explains it to Harry when shew takes him to visit the gates.  What the stakes are.

Anyway this is how I internalize the books.

[peregrine]

Obviously you have never stood for the draft.

Yeah, when people are drafted, they always show up and serve.  At no point does anyone have any chance to avoid it or otherwise refuse to serve.

[morriswalters]

To preface, that wasn't intended as a personal attack or comment on your character, and if you feel it was than you have my sincere apologies.  But most people did go.  Because sometimes it is harder not to.  As in the book those choices all have a price tag, and sometimes the risk of death was less than the personal costs of refusing.

[groinkick]

A Queen of the fae has no choice.  They have some flexibility in their actions, yes, they're not automatons.  But they cannot choose not to do those things.  There is no choice allowed.

Jim said that Maeve hadn't been fulfilling her duties and Molly had about 100 years of work to complete.....  So there is a way for them to avoid their duties.

[KipIngram]

I think whether or not Molly is "human" or not anymore depends on how you define human.  I'd assume her anatomy is all the same,

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in spite of the fact that the "best parts" are apparently now off limits.
 In fact, that itself implies that her reproductive system still works, and that she could still conceive a child with a mortal human.  Otherwise the heavy-handed "magical barricade" to such activities wouldn't be necessary.

We do know that she's immortal now, but I'm not sure if I've gotten that directly from the books or from "informed statements" from online.

[Arjan]

I think whether or not Molly is "human" or not anymore depends on how you define human.  I'd assume her anatomy is all the same,

(click to show/hide)

in spite of the fact that the "best parts" are apparently now off limits.
 In fact, that itself implies that her reproductive system still works, and that she could still conceive a child with a mortal human.  Otherwise the heavy-handed "magical barricade" to such activities wouldn't be necessary.

We do know that she's immortal now, but I'm not sure if I've gotten that directly from the books or from "informed statements" from online.

Biologically the Sidhe are just humans. They can after all breed with humans and that defines a species.

[peregrine]

But most people did go.  Because sometimes it is harder not to.  As in the book those choices all have a price tag, and sometimes the risk of death was less than the personal costs of refusing.

Most people did go, sure.  Because of the consequences.  But many did not.  Because they had a choice, to go or not and face the consequences. For some (albeit not all) of the things for the fae, the consequences are irrelevant.  It doesn't matter what price a choice makes because there is no choice.  A thing will be done.  Not "A thing will be done or..." but simply it will be done.  Period.  Full stop.

Literally nothing a human does short of autonomic functions related to life (breathing, pumping blood, metabolizing) can compare.  Certainly nothing involving societal pressure or punishment.

[groinkick]

Most people did go, sure.  Because of the consequences.  But many did not.  Because they had a choice, to go or not and face the consequences. For some (albeit not all) of the things for the fae, the consequences are irrelevant.  It doesn't matter what price a choice makes because there is no choice.  A thing will be done.  Not "A thing will be done or..." but simply it will be done.  Period.  Full stop.

Literally nothing a human does short of autonomic functions related to life (breathing, pumping blood, metabolizing) can compare.  Certainly nothing involving societal pressure or punishment.

Except for the example I gave above.

[peregrine]

Yeah, but without context, that doesn't mean much.  We don't know how she got around it, or what the Mantle wanted her to do.

[groinkick]

Yeah, but without context, that doesn't mean much.  We don't know how she got around it, or what the Mantle wanted her to do.

Just a guess but if Mab told Molly "Do this", Molly would have a choice.  But like what happened when she almost had sex, the Mantle reacted in such a way showing she did not have a choice in that circumstance.  So Molly isn't like a robot completely at the mercy of the Mantle 100% of the time.  She can make some actual choices.

[morriswalters]

Harry actually covers this when he tells Mab at one point he can be an willing ally or a robot.  The mantle can enforce compliance, but it isn't intelligent.  Mab sets policy, so to speak.  So if she says jump you can make a choice about how high.  To see this effect raise a teenager.

You can also see this in Proven Guilty, where the Summer Lady and Fix help Harry enter Winter.  She gives Harry those Summer butterfly thingees and later tells Fix that she didn't know that Harry would use them to throw Summer Fire at the Winter wellspring.  Wink, wink.