The Death of Margaret Le Fay

[morriswalters]

As forumghost points out here, Jim has laid it out. There's really no remaining ambiguity there as to what Maggie Sr. did to Lord Raith.

She was dumb enough to think sleeping with Lord Raith was a good idea, and dumb enough to think any kind of alliance with the Red Court was a good idea. Ebenezer had respect for her judgment ... until he realized what she was doing, and then didn't.

When I say she wasn't smart, I'm not talking about her ability with magic. It seems fairly evident that, as far as her ability with the art goes, she was up there with the best of them. I'm talking about her judgment and foresight, which seems to have been severely lacking.

And her nickname might indicate that -- but to my knowledge, we haven't seen anyone, including Jim, who's said so. Jim's basically said you get that kind of nickname because you deal with the Fae, because you're crazy, or because you're crazy enough to deal with the Fae. His description didn't have much to do with "respect" unless I'm forgetting something.

It's pretty much laid out in Dead Beat with very little wiggle room.  And I don't disagree with you.  But look very closely at Harry and realize that the branch doesn't fall far from the tree.  Harry's the Winter Knight.  His God Mother is Lea.  He's an ally with Lara Raith and Marcone.  And He's a member of the Grey Council and is enemies with the current Merlin.

I wish JB would write short story about her to flesh out  the character.  It might be more interesting then three about Big Foot.  Or not.

[forumghost]

It's pretty much laid out in Dead Beat with very little wiggle room.  And I don't disagree with you.  But look very closely at Harry and realize that the branch doesn't fall far from the tree.  Harry's the Winter Knight.  His God Mother is Lea.  He's an ally with Lara Raith and Marcone.  And He's a member of the Grey Council and is enemies with the current Merlin.

I wish JB would write short story about her to flesh out  the character.  It might be more interesting then three about Big Foot.  Or not.

The main difference is that Harry wants nothing to do with any of those 'Allies' of his and would rather they all die in a fire. He just keeps getting forced into cooperation by circumstances.

Maggie Sr on the other hand is (based on everyone that's spoken of her) a crusading rebel that knew better then everyone else and got in bed with the monsters willingly (and in some cases literally) because she was smarter and knew better and could handle it, unlike those jerks in the White Council that were too narrow minded to see what had to be done.

By all reports she was very much like Harry, true- if Harry never had the early wake-up calls about how ignorant and out-of-his-depth he really was.

[morriswalters]

I just get a twitch in the back of my neck when I consider Maggie and Malcolm.  We'll see, or rather you might.  I think I'll have crossed over before JB gets to the point.

[Mr. Death]

The main difference is that Harry wants nothing to do with any of those 'Allies' of his and would rather they all die in a fire. He just keeps getting forced into cooperation by circumstances.

Maggie Sr on the other hand is (based on everyone that's spoken of her) a crusading rebel that knew better then everyone else and got in bed with the monsters willingly (and in some cases literally) because she was smarter and knew better and could handle it, unlike those jerks in the White Council that were too narrow minded to see what had to be done.

By all reports she was very much like Harry, true- if Harry never had the early wake-up calls about how ignorant and out-of-his-depth he really was.

I was gonna respond, but this is basically everything I was going to say anyway.

As to Maggie Sr. and Malcolm, another point is the theme that she found redemption in someone who was in a lot of ways the exact opposite of everyone she'd tried to work with before. She was probably someone who thought that power and connections and magic were everything -- meeting someone like Malcolm, who had none of that but was still a good man, is what she'd need to see real redemption.

Otherwise, she's just a pawn of the higher powers bouncing her around.

[forumghost]

I was gonna respond, but this is basically everything I was going to say anyway.

As to Maggie Sr. and Malcolm, another point is the theme that she found redemption in someone who was in a lot of ways the exact opposite of everyone she'd tried to work with before. She was probably someone who thought that power and connections and magic were everything -- meeting someone like Malcolm, who had none of that but was still a good man, is what she'd need to see real redemption.

Otherwise, she's just a pawn of the higher powers bouncing her around.

Exactly why I hate all the "Malcolm was a Wizard/Scion/KOTC" Theories. They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.

[morriswalters]

Exactly why I hate all the "Malcolm was a Wizard/Scion/KOTC" Theories. They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.

Perhaps JB shouldn't have have given a dead man speaking lines.  In my book that is over and above "normal".  Had he treated him as a normal dead parent we wouldn't be having this conversation.  And we had at least two good people who weren't special, Butters and Murphy.  JB evidently hated it so much he turned Butters into a KOTC.  I shudder for Murphy.  Good people(especially women) end up dead in Harry's world.

[forumghost]

Perhaps JB shouldn't have have given a dead man speaking lines.  In my book that is over and above "normal".  Had he treated him as a normal dead parent we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So him being recruited as a ghost the same as say, Carmichael or Papa Murphy was, means that he had to be magical in life???

And we had at least two good people who weren't special, Butters and Murphy.  JB evidently hated it so much he turned Butters into a KOTC.

IMO That had less to do with him hating 'Normals' and more to do with him loving Butters a little too much.

I shudder for Murphy.  Good people(especially women) end up dead in Harry's world.

I mean the real problem as far as Murphy's mortality is probably the fact that she's just gotten into a relationship with Harry, which... historically has not gone well.

Elaine: Mindraped into servitude by her Adopted Father.
Susan: Infected by the Red Court and then used as a living Sacrifice.
Luccio: Entire relationship was a lie caused by severe mental manipulation.

So far we're 0/3 on Harry having a healthy romantic relationship, and I doubt that's gonna change, it's too good a source of Drama for Jim to let drop with that many books left.

[peregrine]

So him being recruited as a ghost the same as say, Carmichael or Papa Murphy was, means that he had to be magical in life???

Well, we don't even know that he was recruited.  But yeah, I was going to make the same argument.  Also Sir Stuart, who is more than just a regular ghost.

[morriswalters]

Special need not be Magical.  And Murphy/Carmichael does not equal ghost.  Sarrisa was mortal in all respects other than an inferred long life span.  Charity gave up her talent and chose to be mortal.  And Malcolm fathered a star born(whatever that is meant to be). And got hired by someone after he died.

[peregrine]

Ok.  So use the word special instead of magical.  Murphy and Carmichael are still active and doing stuff on the other side of the veil.  Were they "special" in any way before they died and were recruited?

[groinkick]

Elaine: Mindraped into servitude by her Adopted Father.

Nothing to do with Harry, he just happened to be there...  That's like saying the brother of a girl being assaulted by her father is somehow responsible.

Susan: Infected by the Red Court and then used as a living Sacrifice.

Yes he was indirectly responsible because she was associated with him.

Luccio: Entire relationship was a lie caused by severe mental manipulation.

Was it a lie?  I got the impression they realized they had been influenced at the beginning but not that it was a lie.  I thought that the feelings were genuine but Luccio realized that she had more important things to do on the Council which her being involved with Harry was a distraction from her duty.  Perhaps I'm remembering wrong...

I'd say it's more like one relationship ended badly because of who Harry is, with Susan.  Elaine and Harry's ended because of Justin and because Harry thought her dead.  Luccio's was more like two people infatuated with each other and realizing they had more important things to do, not a horrible way to end things considering they are on friendly terms.

[peregrine]

Keeping in mind of course that this is not the real world, but a series of books.  So yeah, ultimately everything bad that happens to Harry's love interests is because they're Harry's love interest.

As for Luccio, my take was that while there might have been some genuine affection there, Peabody's work kept her at it.  It was definitely not what Harry thought it was when he realized he had lost his protection against White Court vampires from Susan, that his feelings were not reciprocated.

[morriswalters]

Ok.  So use the word special instead of magical.  Murphy and Carmichael are still active and doing stuff on the other side of the veil.  Were they "special" in any way before they died and were recruited?

We'll both know when JB tells us.  As a working hypothesis, yes, in the same sense that a man who volunteers for combat is special or the guy who wades into a raging river to save someone is.  Look at the context.

They completely undermine the message of how just being a good person can make a difference, because it's not enough to be Good, you have to be Special.

Truly good people are always special.  There aren't many of them.  Not in books and not in real life.  Jim has written a few.

[peregrine]

We'll both know when JB tells us.  As a working hypothesis, yes, in the same sense that a man who volunteers for combat is special or the guy who wades into a raging river to save someone is.  Look at the context.

The context of this conversations seems to be that Malcolm was in some way more than just human.  Not simply special because he's a good person, but that he was a "Wizard/Scion/KotC" since that was what he said to start.

[morriswalters]

I originally suggested, that he was a halfling that chose humanity. And that hypothesis was what  I supposed forumghost was referring to.