Zoo Day and the great Masquerade

[Mr. Death]

I'd venture a guess that Ivy probably has no personal experience with such haunts. The reason the haunts target children is that they're weaker than adults, and Ivy, even as a child, would have been one of the most powerful mortal beings on the planet.

I'd expect any haunt that got within a hundred yards of her would turn and run the other way.

[groinkick]

I'd venture a guess that Ivy probably has no personal experience with such haunts. The reason the haunts target children is that they're weaker than adults, and Ivy, even as a child, would have been one of the most powerful mortal beings on the planet.

I'd expect any haunt that got within a hundred yards of her would turn and run the other way.

Haunts do target adults according to Maggie.  She even thought her dad could be attacked, and not know what  was happening to him.  That said I think it goes to show that she, like Harry isn't always right.  Harry knows about them, and she doesn't know it.  Harry can probably defend himself as well because he can sense magic.  Ivy would melt their faces.

[Quantus]

Maybe, but that bugs me. Intellectus is supposed to be more absolute than that, I think. Even if Harry's limited version isn't, I mean... how far does the effect extend? If a non-human being with full Intellectus tells an adult human about them, does the human just instantly forget about it?

Probably would forget, unless they had some other way to /make/ the memory stick.  And Id assume harry could still spot one with his Sight if he actually knew what he was looking for, though a lot of the time he actively ignores most of what his Sight shows him in basic self-defense.   Alfred's Intellects has always been the most limited example of it from day one, and is particularly focused on his Inmates, which I think is a lot of why he was never very practiced at recognizing mortals.  But if one of the Creepers were to get locked up in the Well I think he'd start taking notice a lot more. Though its a good point that Creepers have very little reason to venture out to an island with no children to target; they strike me as more a zoo and candy store crowd.

Angels have full intellectus. What happens if Nicodemus asks Anduriel, "what supernatural entities are within one mile of me"?

Personally Id dial down the radius just to avoid getting overloaded   But I see your point, anyone else Id say he may simply not be /allowed/ to reveal that aspect of Reality, it seems specifically reserved for Children.  But he's already breaking the rules, so may he has told him, maybe he's aware that they exist even ifhe cannot sense them directly or retain personal memories of them.  Or maybe a Fallen bonded as long and tightly as those two can just provide/overlay the sensory capability like how Lash let harry ultrasound see in the Dark.

EDIT: Even worse... what if a kid writes about the haunts and Ivy picks up the information? When Ivy hits whatever age makes you forget about the haunts, does the information get deleted from the Archive, or reclassified from "nonfiction" to "fiction", or what?

ooh, that's dark...  She's likely a special enough case that can just KNOW that sort of thing, retain it without risk of revealing it and damaging whatever Cosmic Machinery is in motion.  Like a Fallen, if anything could keep you from Forgetting it would be (cue ominous voice) THE ARCHIVE...

[Mr. Death]

I think you guys are overselling the "adults don't know" thing.

I really don't think it's that adults are incapable of retaining information on them. Just that they can't normally perceive them, so they forget or rationalize away what happened to them as kids when they grow up.

That happens with totally mundane things. There were games you made up with your friends and played as a three year old that, in the moment, you knew forward and backward, but a few years later you don't remember it even happened.

Again, Harry was well aware of the bogeyman, even though that's the same kind of thing as the haunts and the creepers.

[Snark Knight]

I think you guys are overselling the "adults don't know" thing.
...
Again, Harry was well aware of the bogeyman, even though that's the same kind of thing as the haunts and the creepers.

Agreed. The Carpenter kids' book of compiled information is accurate enough to be very helpful for basic self-defense against child-feeding monsters, but not necessarily 100% accurate on matters like assuming because most adults forget about them, a Council wizard wouldn't be able to understand the threat is real even if it's mostly on a different wavelength.

[Quantus]

I think you guys are overselling the "adults don't know" thing.

I really don't think it's that adults are incapable of retaining information on them. Just that they can't normally perceive them, so they forget or rationalize away what happened to them as kids when they grow up.

That happens with totally mundane things. There were games you made up with your friends and played as a three year old that, in the moment, you knew forward and backward, but a few years later you don't remember it even happened.

Again, Harry was well aware of the bogeyman, even though that's the same kind of thing as the haunts and the creepers.

Nope, it's very much a supernatural effect.  Keep in mind that the very authors of that book, the carpenter kids themselves who are entirely aware of the Adult supernatural world, are also forgetting these things as they grow up and pass the book along.  The fact that Mouse has difficulty sensing them also proves there is a supernatural effect at work.  Id have to go digging but Im pretty sure this was even confirmed in one of the older WOJ's when he was first talking about the Zoo Day concept.

[Mr. Death]

Nope, it's very much a supernatural effect.  Keep in mind that the very authors of that book, the carpenter kids themselves who are entirely aware of the Adult supernatural world, are also forgetting these things as they grow up and pass the book along.  The fact that Mouse has difficulty sensing them also proves there is a supernatural effect at work.  Id have to go digging but Im pretty sure this was even confirmed in one of the older WOJ's when he was first talking about the Zoo Day concept.

A supernatural effect keeping adults from sensing them right then and there maybe. There doesn't appear to be one keeping adults who hear about them as adults from remembering from that point.

Because, again: Harry knew about the bogeyman.

[Quantus]

A supernatural effect keeping adults from sensing them right then and there maybe. There doesn't appear to be one keeping adults who hear about them as adults from remembering from that point.
[/spoiler]
It does make people forget as they age though, and we dont know whether adults are capable of retaining the memories. If they could remember then it would not have fallen out the way it did in the Carpenter household because they (the carpenter children) would have been able to just tell their clued in parents rather than having to go it alone and make a secret slayer's guide. 

(click to show/hide)

Because, again: Harry knew about the bogeyman.

Which is pretty decent evidence that the Bogeyman not a race of Creeper. There are tons of phobophage species out there, just because that one is classically associated with children doesnt make it one of these things. 

[Mr. Death]

Which is pretty decent evidence that the Bogeyman not a race of Creeper. There are tons of phobophage species out there, just because that one is classically associated with children doesnt make it one of these things.

It matches them in every other way. It preys on children and is undetectable to adults, including wizard adults. The way Harry describes it puts it pretty well in line with the way Maggie talks about the Creepers.

Occam's razor, guys. It's a far simpler explanation that adults simply forget something from their early childhood (and which they can't sense as adults) than that they literally cannot retain information about them.

I mean, you still have Dresden-verse adults remembering what their children say about the "monsters under the bed," and such. Just because they don't believe it doesn't mean they're incapable of retaining information.

Or are we positing that the enchantment is so subtle and specialized that it can only block information about bogeymen and the like if it's "true" information?

Really, it's not in any way different from adults who encounter the supernatural and then "forget" it or rationalize it away. "There's no such thing as creepers, that was just a silly thing I believed when I was three, but I know better," is exactly the same as, "That wasn't a ghoul that jumped me and my partner, it was just a big, drunk guy on PCP with a couple of knives."

[Quantus]

Really, it's not in any way different from adults who encounter the supernatural and then "forget" it or rationalize it away. "There's no such thing as creepers, that was just a silly thing I believed when I was three, but I know better," is exactly the same as, "That wasn't a ghoul that jumped me and my partner, it was just a big, drunk guy on PCP with a couple of knives."

Yes, it is.  Because clued in people that /should/ be able to recognize and believe  in the existence of these folks (like the Carpenters) are still proving incapable

[Mr. Death]

Yes, it is.  Because clued in people that /should/ be able to recognize and believe  in the existence of these folks (like the Carpenters) are still proving incapable

And when have we seen a "clued in" adult be told about these things, then be unable to retain information about them after the fact?

So far, the only time we've seen adults confront the idea of monsters that are only sensed by children, it was an adult that brought it up, as a known thing.

To my knowledge, we do not have any examples of an adult being informed about these things and then being unable to retain the knowledge.

What we do have is near constant reminders that people edit their own memories to get rid of or cover up things they don't want to remember, rationalizing it away. I see no reason to believe the same thing wouldn't happen in the transition from child to adult.

[Quantus]

And when have we seen a "clued in" adult be told about these things, then be unable to retain information about them after the fact?

So far, the only time we've seen adults confront the idea of monsters that are only sensed by children, it was an adult that brought it up, as a known thing.

To my knowledge, we do not have any examples of an adult being informed about these things and then being unable to retain the knowledge.

What we do have is near constant reminders that people edit their own memories to get rid of or cover up things they don't want to remember, rationalizing it away. I see no reason to believe the same thing wouldn't happen in the transition from child to adult.

You are correct we dont have any scenes on page.  We do, however, actually know how the Carpenter family generally operates and responds to supernatural danger, and the apparent response of the carptenter kids doesnt fit that at all, nor does it make any sense for any of those kids (which include Molly and David, recall) to forget and/or rationalize away that aspect of the supernatural while retaining the rest.

[Mr. Death]

You are correct we dont have any scenes on page.  We do, however, actually know how the Carpenter family generally operates and responds to supernatural danger, and the apparent response of the carptenter kids doesnt fit that at all, nor does it make any sense for any of those kids (which include Molly and David, recall) to forget and/or rationalize away that aspect of the supernatural while retaining the rest.

Who says they did any of that?

The only thing we know about the Carpenter kids' reaction to this kind of supernatural stuff is that they wrote everything down in a book and passed it on to their younger siblings.

We have no idea whether or not Molly or Daniel retained anything, because they've never addressed or been confronted with the issue that we've seen.

The balance of the actual evidence we do have indicates that adults are perfectly capable of retaining knowledge of these kinds of creatures, they're just generally unaware of them because they can't sense them.

[Quantus]

Who says they did any of that?

The only thing we know about the Carpenter kids' reaction to this kind of supernatural stuff is that they wrote everything down in a book and passed it on to their younger siblings.

We have no idea whether or not Molly or Daniel retained anything, because they've never addressed or been confronted with the issue that we've seen.

The balance of the actual evidence we do have indicates that adults are perfectly capable of retaining knowledge of these kinds of creatures, they're just generally unaware of them because they can't sense them.

Yes, we have not seen them forget anything on-screen, sure.  However, the rest of the interactions we've seen throughout the series would fit what you propose, sooo....

If by "balance of actual evidence" you mean Harry giving a lecture on a creature that may or may not be at all related to the ones we've actually witness, then sure, and which he may or may not have any first (or even second) hand experience with, then sure. 

[Mr. Death]

Yes, we have not seen them forget anything on-screen, sure.  However, the rest of the interactions we've seen throughout the series would fit what you propose, sooo....

That's the thing -- there aren't any other "interactions" we could base this on. We have not seen any of them in any context where this topic would be brought up.

If by "balance of actual evidence" you mean Harry giving a lecture on a creature that may or may not be at all related to the ones we've actually witness, then sure, and which he may or may not have any first (or even second) hand experience with, then sure.

Yes, considering that's the only evidence we have.

And the story isn't just him giving a lecture. It's him relating a story where he did have direct, first-hand experience with the bogeyman. During the story, he establishes that he can't sense its presence directly, but that he is perfectly aware of the creature and how it operates. He tells two other adults about this, and they appear perfectly capable of understanding and retaining the information.

If you can show me something that indicates that this creature that regularly targets and is only detectable by children is fundamentally different from the other creatures that regularly target and are only detectable by children, I'd be happy to see it.