Zoo Day and the great Masquerade

[Quantus]

So, one of the longstanding aspects of the Dresden Files is that somehow, despite there being no real coordinated effort to hide the Supernatural, the mortal world maintains a nigh supernatural ability to simply ignore what happens around them and move on with their lives.  Everytime this comes up the explanation is more or less that Humans are great at ignoring things that make them uncomfortable, and have managed to hide the Truth from the collective human society without any significant effort. 

Zoo Day showed us that this is actually a much deeper, actively reinforced function of our world.  Turns out that every child is Trained, actively and with purpose, that there exist things that will prey on them but that nobody in Authority will be capable of recognizing or remembering, so it's better for yourself and everyone to handle it however you can, tell nobody, and move one with your life.  What's more, it seems like this is a specific charge and function of these Creepers, something that divinity like Mouse is Required to respect. 

The Children of the DV are all being Conditioned from an early age to pretend that anything labeled supernatural cannot (not Will Not, CANnot) be recognized by Authority, and you will be labeled crazy if you try to make them.  So Dont Try.  This is a patterned response that a whole class of creature exists solely and specifically to Train into mortals from an early age. 

[Maz]

Its been Dresden's contention that this is how it operates.  We've been reminded a few times that Harry is an unreliable narrator.  There is a possibility of several vast conspiracies to assist in keeping it quiet.  In fact, presuming a reader values "Word of Jim", we know there is a US government cover-up and Harry has been in their sights because he is so blatant.

I do believe the ability to ignore and rationalize are important but they're only part of it.  And ultimately, if belief is part of what drives "Power" than by simply saying "There's no such thing", you can deny power, at least to the little things.

[UncommonSense]

Bear in mind, also, that the child in question is Maggie, who's been exposed to the supernatural from birth, and the family she's been with is the Carpenters.  While in the Dresdenverse, there may be an active or passive conspiracy to veil the supernatural, so to speak, we're looking at a very aware subsect within children in general. 

Maybe all kids in the DV have a sense of "bad things", most kids grow up scared of monsters, things that go bump in the night, hands under their bed, or having imaginary friends.  The Carpenter family, including Maggie, are that much more aware that these things exist and have names.  Kids are told, from a young age, that it's just their imagination, or it's just the wind, or it's just that tree tapping on their window.

It could be that the kids that hunt Maggie are really just bullies to anyone else, however Maggie(and probably Harry and Mouse) create a sort of resonance that amplifies and encourages the haunts to track and attack her.

Just my 2c.

[Mr. Death]

I think maybe you're putting too much emphasis on the word "trained." I don't think that it's the deliberate purpose of those creatures, so much as they just happen to be creatures that are only strong enough to prey on children and who, in turn, children are able to fight back against.

I think it's not that someone way back said, "We need to create these things to train children," so much as "These are natural hazards for children, and by overcoming them, they learn to take care of themselves."

[Quantus]

I think maybe you're putting too much emphasis on the word "trained." I don't think that it's the deliberate purpose of those creatures, so much as they just happen to be creatures that are only strong enough to prey on children and who, in turn, children are able to fight back against.

I think it's not that someone way back said, "We need to create these things to train children," so much as "These are natural hazards for children, and by overcoming them, they learn to take care of themselves."

Mouse's conversation with the Creepers indicated otherwise, it spoke of a governing Law, and Laws have to be Written, and with Purpose.  As long as they dont physically harm them (thus leaving evidence, I say from under my oversized tinfoil hat) they are allowed to challenge, haunt, and otherwise terrorize them as they see fit, at somewhere in there it specifically mentioned it as a form of training/conditioning/preperation (will look for the quote when I get home). 

[Mr. Death]

Mouse's conversation with the Creepers indicated otherwise, it spoke of a governing Law, and Laws have to be Written, and with Purpose.  As long as they dont physically harm them (thus leaving evidence, I say from under my oversized tinfoil hat) they are allowed to challenge, haunt, and otherwise terrorize them as they see fit, at somewhere in there it specifically mentioned it as a form of training/conditioning/preperation (will look for the quote when I get home).

I think that was more Law as it applies to Mouse than as it applies to the Creepers. Mouse can only intervene if they harm her physically (just like how Uriel can only intervene if his opposite numbers do).

[vultur]

I have to say I really dislike this concept of beings that adults can't ever know about. It doesn't seem to fit well with stuff already established in the series.

- When Harry was a ghost, Lea made a big deal about how his ghost-memories were perfect, not stored by his brain but in the universe itself. So if he knew about these creatures as a kid but was made to forget later, he still should have remembered as a ghost.

- What if some haunts are hanging around on Demonreach when Harry uses his intellectus to see if there are any monsters around? Shouldn't intellectus override whatever power or effect keeps them hidden from adults?

[Mr. Death]

I have to say I really dislike this concept of beings that adults can't ever know about. It doesn't seem to fit well with stuff already established in the series.

- When Harry was a ghost, Lea made a big deal about how his ghost-memories were perfect, not stored by his brain but in the universe itself. So if he knew about these creatures as a kid but was made to forget later, he still should have remembered as a ghost.

When would they have been relevant to think about during Ghost Story?

- What if some haunts are hanging around on Demonreach when Harry uses his intellectus to see if there are any monsters around? Shouldn't intellectus override whatever power or effect keeps them hidden from adults?

There's no children on Demonreach. Why would Haunts be there if their primary (only?) prey aren't around?

[Quantus]

I have to say I really dislike this concept of beings that adults can't ever know about. It doesn't seem to fit well with stuff already established in the series.

- When Harry was a ghost, Lea made a big deal about how his ghost-memories were perfect, not stored by his brain but in the universe itself. So if he knew about these creatures as a kid but was made to forget later, he still should have remembered as a ghost.

He had to think about things first to get caught in that, and it was dangerous enough he actively tried no to, lest he loose a decade on a Pink Floyd Album.  If he'd starte ruminating on "the first time he fought a monster" he might have gotten a different memory than the HWWB/Justin scene. 

- What if some haunts are hanging around on Demonreach when Harry uses his intellectus to see if there are any monsters around? Shouldn't intellectus override whatever power or effect keeps them hidden from adults?

Given that it apparently affects the "adult" intellect of Mouse and only his Guardian-ness seems to (barely) get past it, it's possible the Creeper's mass  protection would count him as Too Old to sense them. 

[Snark Knight]

The Carpenter family, including Maggie, are that much more aware that these things exist and have names.  Kids are told, from a young age, that it's just their imagination, or it's just the wind, or it's just that tree tapping on their window.

I think Maggie and the Carpenter kids might also have more perception than usual. A predator whose possessed host is walking around with all-black eyes like the demons on Supernatural is going to have trouble if all kids can see them even if adults can't. I don't think she's quite got the Sight, but perception of the haunts' true nature might be a perk of their connection with Michael. He did say when Harry owned up to grabbing the coin before his son could that the Knights' families usually get some limited protection.

[vultur]

When would they have been relevant to think about during Ghost Story?

Harry reminisces about his first experiences with magic in GS, it seems like something likely to come up in that context.

But even if Harry didn't happen to think about them then, I think the broader point still holds - that "adults can't know about them" doesn't seem to work well with the existence of absolute knowledge/perfect memory effects in the Dresdenverse.

[vultur]

Given that it apparently affects the "adult" intellect of Mouse and only his Guardian-ness seems to (barely) get past it, it's possible the Creeper's mass  protection would count him as Too Old to sense them.

Maybe, but that bugs me. Intellectus is supposed to be more absolute than that, I think. Even if Harry's limited version isn't, I mean... how far does the effect extend? If a non-human being with full Intellectus tells an adult human about them, does the human just instantly forget about it?

Angels have full intellectus. What happens if Nicodemus asks Anduriel, "what supernatural entities are within one mile of me"?

EDIT: Even worse... what if a kid writes about the haunts and Ivy picks up the information? When Ivy hits whatever age makes you forget about the haunts, does the information get deleted from the Archive, or reclassified from "nonfiction" to "fiction", or what?

[Mr. Death]

Harry reminisces about his first experiences with magic in GS, it seems like something likely to come up in that context.

But even if Harry didn't happen to think about them then, I think the broader point still holds - that "adults can't know about them" doesn't seem to work well with the existence of absolute knowledge/perfect memory effects in the Dresdenverse.

"Absolute knowledge/perfect memory" that's not available to living adults. Harry didn't get it until he died, and we don't know that he retained it after he lived.

And I'm not sure it's that the can't know about them. Harry knew about the bogeyman in AAAA Wizardry. He couldn't sense it, but he was aware of it.

[raidem]

For the Archive, she wouldn't forget the written text on the Haunts.  She may forget some of her dealings with them, or at least struggle to remember them exactly.

[Wizard Sibelis]

For the Archive, she wouldn't forget the written text on the Haunts.  She may forget some of her dealings with them, or at least struggle to remember them exactly.

Seems there is something of a disconnect between Ivy and the Archive itself anyway. Clearly a mortal, her own knowledge of countless beings would help stabilize them without it. I've always assumed that the host and mantle interact on what beings are to be forgotten, but that Ivy is shielded from direct knowledge unless intentionally accessed. Like a computer file, she has the name and description of it without actually opening the main portions or sub portions... Possibly she can self purge info back into the Archive itself too.