In Hindsight, These Story Choices Were a Mistake

[Mira]

Soulgaze obviously doesn't tell you everything...  Harry didn't even get that Eb was his grandfather from it!

  Exactly, or if you are an old enough, powerful enough, well trained enough, you can hide a lot of stuff.  Actually when you think about it, wardens may have this skill because they do soul gaze as evidence a lot.  I can see where they might not want to completely open themselves up to a warlock or some other evil person..  Knowledge is power and then if that person got off or escaped would potentially hold a lot over them..

[Quantus]

  Exactly, or if you are an old enough, powerful enough, well trained enough, you can hide a lot of stuff.  Actually when you think about it, wardens may have this skill because they do soul gaze as evidence a lot.  I can see where they might not want to completely open themselves up to a warlock or some other evil person..  Knowledge is power and then if that person got off or escaped would potentially hold a lot over them..

Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes.  A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon. 

[Arjan]

Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes.  A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon.

There is no real control about what you see or not, for both parties. Though some things are possible as Margaret showed in blood rites.

[Quantus]

There is no real control about what you see or not, for both parties. Though some things are possible as Margaret showed in blood rites.

That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it.  And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other. 

[Arjan]

That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it.  And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other.

Red court vampires can do a lot of things when you try to soulgaze them.

[Quantus]

Red court vampires can do a lot of things when you try to soulgaze them.

Red Court Vampires can do a lot of things when you Look Them In The Eye.  They cannot be part of a Soulgaze at all. 

[Arjan]

Red Court Vampires can do a lot of things when you Look Them In The Eye.  They cannot be part of a Soulgaze at all.

I did not say it was a soul gaze but it is an attack via the same channel and probably some things are similar.

[Mira]

That's a good point, Maggie was able to tie a message spell into it.  And perhaps more relevant as a counter-argument to mine, Molly was able to initiate mental combat via a Soulgaze, which was in no small part all about Hiding from the other.

If she was able to do that, then one would think she'd be able to hide what she was about as well.

[Arjan]

If she was able to do that, then one would think she'd be able to hide what she was about as well.

Might be easier to add something than suppress something.

[Quantus]

Might be easier to add something than suppress something.

That might be true, feels like it fits. The other thing about that whole scene is that I think makes it a particularly strange occurrence is what the Corpsetaker was at that point: was she a normal Ghost, or a disembodied Soul like Harry was?

[LordDresden2]

Also the Laws don't seem to have been quite nailed down in the early books, which makes some of Morgan's stuff seem even more arbitrary.

I do agree with this.  The Laws were a little looser around the edges back in the day.  For ex, when Harry summoned Chaunzogorroth in Fool Moon, there was an implication in their discussion that Harry was pressing against the Seventh Law.  But the Seventh Law, as explored later in the books, it all about Outsiders.  It doesn't even touch on demon-summoning, which the Council allows (they may frown on it, but they don't forbid it).

Regarding whether the Laws and the effects of black magic match, JB himself has said specifically that the Laws don't perfectly match the natural consequences of using black magic, they're an approximation.  They probably cover the heart of it, but not all the special cases and edges and grey areas.

For ex, Harry probably did take a little taint for animating Sue, but not a whole lot because she's not human and not a sapient being.  Doing that with a human would be orders of magnitude worse, and that's why it's out-Lawed.

The Council even allows a few edge cases specifically, like sleep spells for healing purposes, that touches on the edge of mind control, but apparently not far enough to be too dangerous.  Harry makes a reference in one of the early books to an 'unlicensed' mind fog spell, which implies that the Council allows those too, in special cases.

Is there taint from using magic to kill a WCV? Probably, at least some.  Maybe not as much as with a pure mortal, though.  The Laws don't fit perfectly across all the grey areas.

[/quote]

Oh, she was, some.  Not as much as she would have been had circumstances been worse, but there were some effects.  She got angry more easily, and was constantly fighting the temptation to do more.  But her intentions were mostly good, and she did likely save Rosie's baby from being born addicted, she took the first steps down the dark road but Harry got to her in time.

Had things gone on in that direction for six months, or a year, or 18 months, before Harry found out...the outcome might have been rather different.

[LordDresden2]

Also Harry was a sixteen year old kid at the time, little experience with soul gazes or how to interpret what he was seeing in the first place.

I think that's important.  The Soulgaze may tell you the truth, and maybe the whole truth (depending on how long it lasts), but it doesn't guarantee your ability to understand that truth, or recognize it.  Ditto using the Sight.

[Arjan]

That might be true, feels like it fits.

I was talking about the Harry-Thomas soul gaze but it fits Molly as well I suppose.

The other thing about that whole scene is that I think makes it a particularly strange occurrence is what the Corpsetaker was at that point: was she a normal Ghost, or a disembodied Soul like Harry was?

Definitely a disembodied soul like Harry. You get it quite clear if you read Lea’s explanation about corpstaker just after you finish the book.

She makes it clear that if Corpstaker would acquire a body she would be alive again, not some ghost possessing someone.

“When Corpsetaker’s spirit still dwelt upon the mortal coil, even bodies with latent talent were hospitable enough for her to exercise her full power. But thanks to you, and like you, my dear godson, she has passed beyond the threshold between life and death. Now she requires a body with a much greater inherent talent in order to use her gifts once she is inside it.”

Also I don’t think Uriel would be that interested in damning a mere ghost, it is soul’s the angels are interested in. For that reason I think Stu was probably not a ghost either.

[Fcrate]

Yes to the part where it does not give you everything (or really anything factually specific like vocation or genealogy), but I really dont think there is any way to actively Hide things during it, that's basically the whole Big Deal with the Sight and Soulgazes.  A big clue to that for me is that an Angel's only choice was to Shut Down ghost Harry's Sight to protect him, he couldnt simply obfuscate his weapon. 

I agree, as for the part about adding something, that might be possible with careful planning and a direct link of mother to son. (I still think the part of the message from Maggie is a bit far fetched) The Fallen Angel, caught unawares with the gaze, had nothing to defend itself except shutting down the connection. I doubt it'd be able to hide anyway.
That still, I don't see what it had to worry about, probably the sight of it's true self would have left Harry a gibbering wreck (Shagnasty) and ripe for plucking.

[Arjan]

I agree, as for the part about adding something, that might be possible with careful planning and a direct link of mother to son. (I still think the part of the message from Maggie is a bit far fetched) The Fallen Angel, caught unawares with the gaze, had nothing to defend itself except shutting down the connection. I doubt it'd be able to hide anyway.
That still, I don't see what it had to worry about, probably the sight of it's true self would have left Harry a gibbering wreck (Shagnasty) and ripe for plucking.

It is not like shagnasty. It worried about the impact on Harry.