Author Topic: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?  (Read 57834 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #150 on: August 06, 2018, 09:12:14 AM »

From what I recall, what Molly did in SF was under the table, too -- a violation that Luccio ordered and allowed -- but didn't report.
The same Lucio who could not use magic to kill LaFortier even as a completely enthralled half sleeping bomb? The captain of the wardens? I think that is unlikely.
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And again -- just because the Council allowed it doesn't mean it doesn't break the laws.
These are the council's laws. If they explicitly allow it then it is allowed. Don't confuse the effects of black magic on the wizard interpreted as some sort of natural law of how black magic works with the actual laws which are just a human construct created and maintained by humans.
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Harry's mentioned "grey magic" before,
As something that is still allowed but has a certain smell. Unless Morgan handled it because he can be anal about it.
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and we've also had Luccio in a short story considering killing a bunch of warlocks with a fire spell.
That was temptation. And she did not do it.
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In Ghost Story, Harry explicitly says the Council, in response to what I presume are the events of Turn Coat, changed how it does things in regard to mind magic:
They changed their practices, they did not change the laws. They were just prepared to get closer to the line which brings some risks they were not prepared to face earlier. But they did not change the laws. It is not that easy to declare that something is now allowed that always got your head chopped of. Besides older wizards knew how to do it so they practiced before.
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That's fair. But we also have Harry considering it a violation:
And Molly was under the doom. Harry can be as bad ass Morgan when he has reason to and he has. He learned that from his grandfather. When we have Lucio's actions directly contradicting it I don't take it for sure anymore.

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That's like saying, "Why use the word stabbing at all? That only makes sense if there's a non-stabbing way to stick a knife in someone."
It is written law, words are important and we must assume that they are carefully chosen. If every entering was bad the law would have been worded differently. All other things you can invade you can also enter peacefully if invited.
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Just because you use a word for something doesn't mean there has to be an opposite.
Invading is entering without invitation usually with hostile intent. This is not the opposite of entering but just a word with a narrower meaning. If all entering was forbidden they should have chosen a word with a wider meaning.

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I don't think Bob went in Butters' mind, but in his body, like he rode along with Mister.
And Lasciel was in Harry's soul -- part of it, even -- not his mind. They might be linked, and they might be related, but they're distinct things.
And we make a sharp distinction in the forums but in practice in the books these words are loosely used, these things are interwoven with each other. Mab just uses one word for all of them together, your essence.

It is your essence that corpstaker casts out and replaces though Lucio remarks she left some traces of the original occupant. It is Harry's essence that enters Molly's mind and spirit in ghost story while she battles with corpstaker.

Who apparently needed an invitation from Mortimer to take over, it matters.
 
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Molly has a talent for mind magic; Mortimer has a talent for spirit and soul magic; they're treated as different specialties, with different types of spells that affect people in different ways.
That's not what empathy is. Empathy is being able to understand how another's feeling, i.e., seeing signs in their behavior, or in what they tell others; in Dresden, it's the ability to feel what others are radiating out or otherwise broadcasting. Harry refers feeling emotions "coming off" of people. So does Molly. To my knowledge, neither of them refer to empathy or sensing emotions as them looking into someone.
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Offline Blaze

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #151 on: August 06, 2018, 11:30:51 AM »
Please refrain from "you" statements.  Posters should not assume intent behind posts.

If you can not discourse courteously with one another, please simply do not comment upon each other's theories.

This is a new site, but they have chosen to import the old precepts.  By participating here you have agreed to  abide by the precepts. 

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Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #152 on: August 06, 2018, 01:35:46 PM »
"Invasion" implies lack of consent.

A consensual entry into someone's mind thus is not considered an invasion.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #153 on: August 06, 2018, 02:36:30 PM »
The same Lucio who could not use magic to kill LaFortier even as a completely enthralled half sleeping bomb? The captain of the wardens? I think that is unlikely.
And yet, apparently, it happened. Even if, for the sake of argument, I accept the position that going into someone's mind with consent is OK, Molly went into Harry's mind without Harry's consent, and Luccio did not have the right to consent for him.

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These are the council's laws. If they explicitly allow it then it is allowed. Don't confuse the effects of black magic on the wizard interpreted as some sort of natural law of how black magic works with the actual laws which are just a human construct created and maintained by humans.
The Council's laws are directly based on the cosmic laws, and are deliberately and explicitly meant to cover the same thing.

That the Council allows certain violations of the Cosmic laws doesn't change that they are, still, violations of the cosmic laws.

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That was temptation. And she did not do it.
The story does not present it as a "temptation," but just as her calmly and rationally going over her options. And the reasons she gives for not doing it are that people might see, and that the fire could kill civilians. During her calm, rational reasoning, the whole topic of, "This would break the laws of magic" is simply not brought up.

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They changed their practices, they did not change the laws. They were just prepared to get closer to the line which brings some risks they were not prepared to face earlier. But they did not change the laws. It is not that easy to declare that something is now allowed that always got your head chopped of. Besides older wizards knew how to do it so they practiced before.
Apparently it is that easy, because that's what Harry describes: First, the White Council "hated" mind magic and thus didn't even practice defense against it because doing so involved breaking the laws; then, after seeing how easily their meager defenses could be overcome (Warden Luccio, "old hand" that she was, was both easily taken out by Corpsetaker and then even Morgan and the Senior Council were subverted), they deliberately changed their practices so that a thing that could get your head cut off (using mind magic) was now allowed.

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And Molly was under the doom. Harry can be as bad ass Morgan when he has reason to and he has. He learned that from his grandfather. When we have Lucio's actions directly contradicting it I don't take it for sure anymore.
Harry does not qualify his statement that it was only a violation because she's under the Doom. He only says, "You broke a law of magic, willingly." Luccio doesn't directly contradict that Molly broke a law, and in the book, Molly only gets away with it because Morgan doesn't report her; he admits as much.

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It is written law, words are important and we must assume that they are carefully chosen. If every entering was bad the law would have been worded differently. All other things you can invade you can also enter peacefully if invited.
The laws are written poetically as much as, if not more than, legally. Take the Sixth Law's admonition that one not "swim against the currents of time." Does that you could, say, "walk" against the current (on the riverbank, perhaps), and not violate it? Or fly over it? Perhaps going against the current in a "boat" is fine?

I'm positing that it's not that it's saying "invasion are bad, other things are fine," it's declaring that because it's bad, it's by definition an invasion.

Harry doesn't say, "You can only look if you have consent." He says, "You don't get to know."

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Invading is entering without invitation usually with hostile intent. This is not the opposite of entering but just a word with a narrower meaning. If all entering was forbidden they should have chosen a word with a wider meaning.
Again, the laws are written as much poetically. Calling it an invasion is to emphasize how wrong it is -- I do not think it's there to leave argument wiggle-room about consent, because if we know anything about how the Council enforces their laws, they hate things like arguments and wiggle room.

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And we make a sharp distinction in the forums but in practice in the books these words are loosely used, these things are interwoven with each other. Mab just uses one word for all of them together, your essence.

It is your essence that corpstaker casts out and replaces though Lucio remarks she left some traces of the original occupant. It is Harry's essence that enters Molly's mind and spirit in ghost story while she battles with corpstaker.

Who apparently needed an invitation from Mortimer to take over, it matters.
Even so, they are distinct -- Molly's psychomancy doesn't let her do anything with spirits or souls, and Morty's ectomancy doesn't let him do anything to minds.

Corpsetaker needing an invitation from Morty had more to do with how much power she had; it certainly wasn't out of any concern for Morty's well-being or courtesy. She didn't need or care about Butters or Molly's consent, after all.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #154 on: August 06, 2018, 03:29:12 PM »
And yet, apparently, it happened. Even if, for the sake of argument, I accept the position that going into someone's mind with consent is OK, Molly went into Harry's mind without Harry's consent, and Luccio did not have the right to consent for him.
Or looking for tampering is a grey area that is OK according to the captain of the wardens and Morgan is a zealot and Harry is over concerned because Molly is a warlock and he is tutored by Ebenezer who wanted to instill the fear for black magic into him for obvious reasons.
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The Council's laws are directly based on the cosmic laws, and are deliberately and explicitly meant to cover the same thing.
Lucio was pretty clear about it. The laws are there to regulate the use of wizard power and nothing else. Black magic may have been one of the reasons for doing so but to confuse the cosmic laws invented on this forum with the real laws maintained by the council is wrong.

They are two different things and people can easily switch between them in one sentence and confuse everything.
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That the Council allows certain violations of the Cosmic laws doesn't change that they are, still, violations of the cosmic laws.
The cosmic laws are not codified, the council laws are. For the council laws invitation makes a huge difference and we know that for a lot of things in the dresdenverse invitation makes a difference so if you have an invitation it is OK according to the laws of magic.

Is it OK according to these "cosmic laws"? Who knows. Is there a double blind experiment with soul blackness meters measured before and after with a lot of wizards?

Because otherwise we can only say something about the laws of magic and not about those "cosmic laws". And for all we know invitation seems to matter for the soul blackness as well. seems logical to me because an invitation means no violation of free will and so on.
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The story does not present it as a "temptation," but just as her calmly and rationally going over her options. And the reasons she gives for not doing it are that people might see, and that the fire could kill civilians. During her calm, rational reasoning, the whole topic of, "This would break the laws of magic" is simply not brought up.
Apparently it is that easy, because that's what Harry describes: First, the White Council "hated" mind magic and thus didn't even practice defense against it because doing so involved breaking the laws; then, after seeing how easily their meager defenses could be overcome (Warden Luccio, "old hand" that she was, was both easily taken out by Corpsetaker and then even Morgan and the Senior Council were subverted), they deliberately changed their practices so that a thing that could get your head cut off (using mind magic) was now allowed.
It is nowhere said that they changed the laws. A far simpler explanation involving less earth shattering is that they simply adapted their practices.
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Harry does not qualify his statement that it was only a violation because she's under the Doom. He only says, "You broke a law of magic, willingly." Luccio doesn't directly contradict that Molly broke a law, and in the book, Molly only gets away with it because Morgan doesn't report her; he admits as much.
The laws are written poetically as much as, if not more than, legally. Take the Sixth Law's admonition that one not "swim against the currents of time." Does that you could, say, "walk" against the current (on the riverbank, perhaps), and not violate it? Or fly over it? Perhaps going against the current in a "boat" is fine?

I'm positing that it's not that it's saying "invasion are bad, other things are fine," it's declaring that because it's bad, it's by definition an invasion.


And why is it bad? It can be needed to heal people and is used that way by the senior council. There is no case in the books of someone invited in someones mind who got a blacker soul or was beheaded by the wardens. The whole idea that entering someones mind is always wrong is based on an interpretation of the law that is not supported by the text and contradicts the words used.
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Harry doesn't say, "You can only look if you have consent." He says, "You don't get to know."
Harry does not want to encourage Molly seeking in the grey area's. He is trying to protect her.
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Again, the laws are written as much poetically. Calling it an invasion is to emphasize how wrong it is -- I do not think it's there to leave argument wiggle-room about consent, because if we know anything about how the Council enforces their laws, they hate things like arguments and wiggle room.
They do like wiggle room, just not for everyone.

And nobody changed the wording of the laws so nobody changed the laws. If it is allowed now it was allowed in the past.
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Even so, they are distinct -- Molly's psychomancy doesn't let her do anything with spirits or souls, and Morty's ectomancy doesn't let him do anything to minds.
Skin game. Molly was needed to do the spirits delivery. She talked with IdHarry. She knows how to handle spirits. She even used the wooden skull to give bonnie a home.

The distinction between these things is fuzzy.
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Corpsetaker needing an invitation from Morty had more to do with how much power she had; it certainly wasn't out of any concern for Morty's well-being or courtesy. She didn't need or care about Butters or Molly's consent, after all.
Which is exactly the point. You need extra power if you do not have an invitation. Because it is different if you do not have an invitation.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #155 on: August 06, 2018, 09:07:16 PM »
Or looking for tampering is a grey area that is OK according to the captain of the wardens and Morgan is a zealot and Harry is over concerned because Molly is a warlock and he is tutored by Ebenezer who wanted to instill the fear for black magic into him for obvious reasons.
I feel like there is some point in the books where it's pointed out that Luccio allowed a breakage of law, but I don't know where. I could also argue that Luccio was under Peabody's influence at this point. But until I find that bit, I'll let this point go.

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Lucio was pretty clear about it. The laws are there to regulate the use of wizard power and nothing else. Black magic may have been one of the reasons for doing so but to confuse the cosmic laws invented on this forum with the real laws maintained by the council is wrong.

They are two different things and people can easily switch between them in one sentence and confuse everything.
She does not say "and nothing else," she just says they're not based on conventional morality. And the cosmic laws were not invented here. Harry's clear from the start that breaking one of the law has a tangible effect on the wizard that casts it, and we've seen that borne out again and again, both in Harry and in Molly and in random warlocks like the Korean kid at the start of PG. Harry is able to recognize the "feel" of black magic.

So the idea that there is a higher version of the laws that doesn't care what the Council says was not created on the forums, it's something that comes from the text of the books.

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The cosmic laws are not codified, the council laws are. For the council laws invitation makes a huge difference and we know that for a lot of things in the dresdenverse invitation makes a difference so if you have an invitation it is OK according to the laws of magic.

Is it OK according to these "cosmic laws"? Who knows. Is there a double blind experiment with soul blackness meters measured before and after with a lot of wizards?

Because otherwise we can only say something about the laws of magic and not about those "cosmic laws". And for all we know invitation seems to matter for the soul blackness as well. seems logical to me because an invitation means no violation of free will and so on.
Given that Harry has a tangible mark on his soul (several other wizards mention seeing it, plus that rando in Storm Front), as does Molly (Harry sees it himself), and Harry can detect the taint of black magic in other practitioners, I think it's pretty fair to say there is definitely something there.

Heck, Jim Butcher has even said that how the Council enforces the Laws doesn't match up to the cosmic laws.

Look at the "self defense" exemption. Harry's breaking the law to kill Justin is considered OK by the council (... eventually), and Harry repeatedly mentions that there's allowances for saving your own life. And yet, he still bears the mark of black magic and the tangible temptation to kill again.

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It is nowhere said that they changed the laws. A far simpler explanation involving less earth shattering is that they simply adapted their practices.
Changing how you enforce the laws is changing the laws. The laws presumably include their enforcement -- that's how mundane laws work, they lay out what you can't do and what happens to you if you do it anyway (or, at the least, refer to someplace else in the code about it).

So, presumably, the codified law was along the lines of, "Don't go into someone else's brain, or we'll cut your head off," and now is, "Don't go into someone else's brain*, or we'll cut your head off" with "*Unless you're practicing defense against mind magic with your apprentice" at the bottom of the page.

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And why is it bad? It can be needed to heal people and is used that way by the senior council. There is no case in the books of someone invited in someones mind who got a blacker soul or was beheaded by the wardens. The whole idea that entering someones mind is always wrong is based on an interpretation of the law that is not supported by the text and contradicts the words used.
Even if a scalpel is only used to heal someone, it still means they have to be stitched up, have to not do anything strenuous for a few weeks and will carry a scar for the rest of their lives as a result.

We don't see everyone's soul who's looked into a mind. But I would wager that Molly's looks blacker after Turn Coat than it did before that book.

Perhaps "wrong" is the wrong word. Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say that entering someone's mind is always damaging. It may be consensual, it may be with the gentlest touch, and it may be intended only to heal, but I still posit that you have to get in to somewhere that you normally can't go into, only out of.

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Harry does not want to encourage Molly seeking in the grey area's. He is trying to protect her.
At that point in the conversation, it's too late to "protect" her and Harry knows it. He tells her to run if she wants, because he considers by that point that the Wardens will kill her. So little point in trying to discourage or protect her at that point.

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They do like wiggle room, just not for everyone.
Their zero-tolerance policy kind of belies that.

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And nobody changed the wording of the laws so nobody changed the laws. If it is allowed now it was allowed in the past.
We haven't seen any rulebook; all we have is a pithy, poetic-sounding one-liner for each law. And the idea that they don't change and have never changed just goes against human nature and the nature of all such man-made laws.

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Skin game. Molly was needed to do the spirits delivery. She talked with IdHarry. She knows how to handle spirits. She even used the wooden skull to give bonnie a home.

The distinction between these things is fuzzy.
A spirit of intellect, so I'd wager it's as much "mind" as it is "soul." It was in Harry's brain, after all. Plus, Molly's the Winter Lady and had already visited Harry in his dream -- the same kind of dreamy unconsciousness that IdHarry shows up in.

Or maybe Spirits are weird and different from how people normally work. I'm not sure we can use them as evidence for how human-to-human mind/soul magic works.

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Which is exactly the point. You need extra power if you do not have an invitation. Because it is different if you do not have an invitation.
That's still to do with souls, though.

What I'm positing is:

Souls can be and are merged and shared -- that's how the True Love protection works, Harry has some of Murphy's soul on him from hugging her, etc. They're a malleable part of yourself that you can freely exchange with others and which moves with you when you move on ("You are a soul. You have a body.")

Minds, however, are internalized and behind barriers that normally are not a two-way street. It's not a "natural" process to have someone else in your mind the way you might have someone in your soul. The soul is meant to be shared, but your mind is yours and yours alone. Ergo, I posit that for someone to get into your mind, they must by definition go against that natural order and get through natural barriers in your mind.

That's why I call it a violation -- even if you're doing it with the noblest intentions, even if you're doing it exclusively to heal mental tampering, the patient can't "hold the door open" any more than they could open up their bellybutton for you to reach in and pluck out their appendix -- you still have to force your way into someplace you're not meant to be to do the job.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 09:43:38 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #156 on: August 06, 2018, 10:59:46 PM »
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Ergo, I posit that for someone to get into your mind, they must by definition go against that natural order and get through natural barriers in your mind.
That appears to be begging the question.  It may be dangerous, and damaging.  It may be forbidden by the WC.  But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry.  It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.

I'd swear the JB had modeled this on societies  approach to drugs, with emphasis on something like heroin.  The WC's approach models it rather closely.  Even if it wasn't his intention.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #157 on: August 07, 2018, 04:31:18 AM »
That appears to be begging the question.  It may be dangerous, and damaging.  It may be forbidden by the WC.  But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry.  It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.

I'd swear the JB had modeled this on societies  approach to drugs, with emphasis on something like heroin.  The WC's approach models it rather closely.  Even if it wasn't his intention.
only invading is forbidden

The idea that entering the mind is always an invasion is nowhere supported in the books. The idea that invitation matters is supported in countless similar situations.

The councils neglect of defense against mind magic was not because of the law but because of a general distrust of that type of magic maybe even under Peabodies influence. No official change of law was passed, the old guard started to examine minds directly at the end of turn coat and knew exactly what to do and nobody was surprised they did so. Harry and Molly training started probably even before that given corpstaker in dead beat.

There is a lot about the traumatic effect of mind magic but it is all about the effects of changing the mind, not about the effect of breaking in let alone the effect of inviting someone into your mind.

And if every entering of the mind was a break of the law there would be no use of the word invasion and no use for that other law against enthrallment either, you usually enter someone’s mind for that.

The finer words of the laws have meaning otherwise Harry would not have raised Sue. The word invasion is meaningful and it is nowhere said that all entrance has to be invasive.

Bringing someone to sleep is seen as mind magic but it was always accepted, easily done and with no particular negative effects afterwards.

Even Molly changing Harry’s memory in changes was not against the laws. Molly was invited to do exactly that.

Did it taint her? Was it against the “cosmic laws”? Who knows, maybe. The council laws are a good rule of the thumb for that but they do not exactly fit whatever interpretation someone gives to them. And no way to check that either.

There is the way the universe works and there are the seven laws. They are related but different. When I am talking about the laws I am always talking about the council laws.









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Offline groinkick

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #158 on: August 07, 2018, 05:54:14 AM »
Here is a question.  Do these potions have a weakness?  For example a member of the Raith family really cannot use their powers on someone who is in a truly loving relationship.  So could it be that a love potion will not work on someone who is already in love?  I wonder since it is after all based on magic if they can have weaknesses like this?
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #159 on: August 07, 2018, 06:35:55 AM »
The same Lucio who could not use magic to kill LaFortier even as a completely enthralled half sleeping bomb? The captain of the wardens? I think that is unlikely. These are the council's laws. If they explicitly allow it then it is allowed. Don't confuse the effects of black magic on the wizard interpreted as some sort of natural law of how black magic works with the actual laws which are just a human construct created and maintained by humans.As something that is still allowed but has a certain smell. Unless Morgan handled it because he can be anal about it.That was temptation. And she did not do it.They changed their practices, they did not change the laws. They were just prepared to get closer to the line which brings some risks they were not prepared to face earlier. But they did not change the laws. It is not that easy to declare that something is now allowed that always got your head chopped of. Besides older wizards knew how to do it so they practiced before. And Molly was under the doom. Harry can be as bad ass Morgan when he has reason to and he has. He learned that from his grandfather. When we have Lucio's actions directly contradicting it I don't take it for sure anymore.
It is written law, words are important and we must assume that they are carefully chosen. If every entering was bad the law would have been worded differently. All other things you can invade you can also enter peacefully if invited.Invading is entering without invitation usually with hostile intent. This is not the opposite of entering but just a word with a narrower meaning. If all entering was forbidden they should have chosen a word with a wider meaning.
And we make a sharp distinction in the forums but in practice in the books these words are loosely used, these things are interwoven with each other. Mab just uses one word for all of them together, your essence.

It is your essence that corpstaker casts out and replaces though Lucio remarks she left some traces of the original occupant. It is Harry's essence that enters Molly's mind and spirit in ghost story while she battles with corpstaker.

Who apparently needed an invitation from Mortimer to take over, it matters.

I agree. Invitations does matter.

The first time we are introduced in depth to mind magic is book 8. In that book, it is explained that one of the cause of damage when a wizard conduct mind magic is due to the fact that the victim subconsciously resist the command arcanely implanted into them by the dark wizard. The more this command contradicts with the victim's original will, the greater the resistance and thus the greater the damage when the mind battle itself to gain freedom.

This is why renfields cannot last long and tends to goes out of control after some time. However, we also know mind magic that truly lasted. Enthrallment. It is what Du'Morn wanted to do to both Elaine and Harry. The question is: Why enthrallment can last while other kinds of mind control cannot?

It is because Du'Morn first build his image in the minds of young Elaine and Harry as their father figure and master using mundane means. Thus when he implanted his magic into their minds, the ressitance will be minimal if not completely null.

This shows that invitation does matter. It is not because the mind has some kind of a psychic shield or firewall which open on invitation, but if one entered another's mind by invitation, presumably there won't be any resistance and thus no damage.

The council's law may have stated that entering another's mind without permission is a law violation, so Harry is not wrong when he told Molly that she broke the law when she entered Luccio's mind in book 11. But arcanely speaking, no one whom Molly mind scanned suffered any damage regardless she have permission or not. Twice this happened in the series, and as long as she only entered and just take a look without touching, rewiring or modifying anything, it seems harmless as far as what I can determine.

I suspect this law regarding not invading another's mind probably a little flawed. It is probably not as dangerous as it's seems originally. Though it help in reducing temptation. completely forbidding to enters another's mind does help in reducing possible rewiring cases.
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    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #160 on: August 07, 2018, 07:21:19 AM »
I suspect this law regarding not invading another's mind probably a little flawed. It is probably not as dangerous as it's seems originally. Though it help in reducing temptation. completely forbidding to enters another's mind does help in reducing possible rewiring cases.
Did you mean invade?

And yes, there is a huge temptation when you see something wrong in someone’s mind to do something about it  ;D
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 10:53:06 AM by Arjan »
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Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #161 on: August 07, 2018, 01:43:15 PM »
Point of order: An invasion is an entry without consent.

Since in most other cases consent makes magic much easier and safer (a wizard can cast spells freely in another person's house if the other person invited him in, and not otherwise, for example), it stands to reason that it's the lack of consent inherent in an invasion that makes entering someone's mind dangerous, not the entry itself.

Particularly given that consensual entries into the minds of others have been shown not to be nearly as dangerous as invasions.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 01:46:29 PM by Paviel »

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #162 on: August 07, 2018, 03:25:46 PM »
Did you mean invade?

And yes, there is a huge temptation when you see something wrong in someone’s mind to do something about it  ;D

It is also possible, if the mind wizard is not skilled enough, he or she might do some rewiring by accident when entering another's mind. And that will really be black magic.

As the proverb said: "If you play by the riverside long enough, your shoes will get wet eventually." If I am the council, I would forbid doing "Mind scan" as well. Even if I know the act by itself won't cause any taint or damage, it is definitely an art not to be encouraged. It is simply a well of temptation and very prone to accidents.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #163 on: August 07, 2018, 03:26:40 PM »
That appears to be begging the question.  It may be dangerous, and damaging.  It may be forbidden by the WC.  But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry.  It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.
I dispute that it is "perfectly natural," because if it was natural, why would you need magic to get in? You don't need magic to share soul bits. But to get into a mind, you have to work a spell to get in.

Erecting defenses doesn't necessarily mean there's a valid entry. If I wear a helmet, that doesn't mean that otherwise there's a "perfectly natural" way for things to get into my skull otherwise. Prison windows that have no latch or hinges to open nonetheless have bars in them -- does that mean without the bars, they're a "natural" entry?

only invading is forbidden

The idea that entering the mind is always an invasion is nowhere supported in the books. The idea that invitation matters is supported in countless similar situations.
I'm pretty sure Harry notes that he had Molly break a law of magic when he had her change his mind. I can't recall where, exactly, though I'm not finding it in either Ghost Story or the Paranet Papers, so it must be in Cold Days or Skin Game, if it exists.

Ah well, I'm due for a reread soon (got a long commute by train, I'm running out of new books to read anyway).

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The councils neglect of defense against mind magic was not because of the law but because of a general distrust of that type of magic maybe even under Peabodies influence. No official change of law was passed, the old guard started to examine minds directly at the end of turn coat and knew exactly what to do and nobody was surprised they did so. Harry and Molly training started probably even before that given corpstaker in dead beat.
How it not because of the law? Harry says the council hates mind magic, and there's not one but two laws specifically about mind magic. I don't see how their neglect of defense could be unrelated to it.

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There is a lot about the traumatic effect of mind magic but it is all about the effects of changing the mind, not about the effect of breaking in let alone the effect of inviting someone into your mind.
Harry sees traumatic marks on Molly's victims, even on the one where the magic "worked." But aside from that, you're right -- though we haven't seen many victims of mind-magic "after," except for Harry and Luccio, and their minds are all kinds of screwed up by the time we know it's happened that it's hard to tell just what did all the damage to them.

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And if every entering of the mind was a break of the law there would be no use of the word invasion and no use for that other law against enthrallment either, you usually enter someone’s mind for that.
Usually, but not necessarily.

That said, I'm checking Molly's entries in the RPG, and to my surprise, neither one has a Third Law violation on her sheet -- though this might be because the first entry is written circa Small Favor (before she looked in Luccio's head in Turn Coat), and the second is written by Murphy and Butters, who may not know about what she did to Luccio (they certainly don't mention her role in Harry's death).

What is interesting to note, though, is that between the source books, her Lawbreaker power went up a tick, so changing Harry's mind might well have counted as "Enthralling" him.

(click to show/hide)

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The finer words of the laws have meaning otherwise Harry would not have raised Sue. The word invasion is meaningful and it is nowhere said that all entrance has to be invasive.
It is meaningful -- but we're each pulling different meanings from its use.

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Bringing someone to sleep is seen as mind magic but it was always accepted, easily done and with no particular negative effects afterwards.
That Harry has to make a specific note of it makes me doubt it was "always" accepted, and it's not necessarily "easily" done (note Harry's surprise at how Molly instantly accomplishes it on a room of goons when Harry could maybe put one to sleep with a few minutes of prep time)

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Even Molly changing Harry’s memory in changes was not against the laws. Molly was invited to do exactly that.
Again, I seem to recall it being called out specifically as breaking a law, but I don't have the citation handy.

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Did it taint her? Was it against the “cosmic laws”? Who knows, maybe. The council laws are a good rule of the thumb for that but they do not exactly fit whatever interpretation someone gives to them. And no way to check that either.
I'd be willing to wager her state in Ghost Story wasn't all about plain guilt.

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There is the way the universe works and there are the seven laws. They are related but different. When I am talking about the laws I am always talking about the council laws.
I tend to talk about both -- they are, after all, related, and personally I think the cosmic-level laws are the ones you really have to be concerned about.

For instance, a guy might be perfectly within his legal rights when he shoots a guy in his house, but even if he never once gets the slightest bit of legal trouble -- even if he's lauded for his "heroics" -- he still might not sleep at night for a while because of what he's done.

So I think the affect on the wizard is much more important than whether the humanly flawed and arrogant Senior Council says it's OK.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 03:35:22 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #164 on: August 07, 2018, 03:28:53 PM »
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It is also possible, if the mind wizard is not skilled enough, he or she might do some rewiring by accident when entering another's mind. And that will really be black magic.

At which point, even a mind that had consented to being entered would probably yell "GET OUT!"

That's what happened when Harry tried to soulgaze... I think it was Ursiel.