Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Mira]

How old are you? As a young boy I could have wild monkey sex any time I wanted but only with myself. If you get older and your body deserts you in small ways and pressure builds up with job and family and you get tired sooner and not enough sleep anyway.

There is a huge market in viagra. If your partner tells you not now it can just mean that she is too stressed, too tired or emotionally empty after a long day at work. You would both like wild monkey sex but it is just not possible.

Now Harry makes that nice potion.

Really, Ill doers are ill deemers.

Viagra isn't a drug slipped on you unawares usually..  Let's not forget that Harry gave the love potion to Susan by accident under pressure of the attack..    If the portion is used like Viagra merely to enhance or to make sex possible voluntarily, that is one thing... But if it is slipped to someone to have sex when that person doesn't want it by breaking down their will, that is rape.   

[morriswalters]

How old are you? As a young boy I could have wild monkey sex any time I wanted but only with myself. If you get older and your body deserts you in small ways and pressure builds up with job and family and you get tired sooner and not enough sleep anyway.

There is a huge market in viagra. If your partner tells you not now it can just mean that she is too stressed, too tired or emotionally empty after a long day at work. You would both like wild monkey sex but it is just not possible.

Now Harry makes that nice potion.

Really, Ill doers are ill deemers.

I'm old enough.  Oddly enough Wikipedia has an entry on the topic.  Go figure.  And for the record I don't think Viagra works like a lust potion.  Here are Harry's thoughts from Storm Front.

No. That would be too much. That would be like admitting I couldn't get a woman to like me on my own, and it would be unfair, taking advantage of the woman.

That doesn't sound like consent.  Just for the record, I would die to have wild monkey sex one more time.  And given the state of my pump that statement might be prophetic.

[Arjan]

I'm old enough.  Oddly enough Wikipedia has an entry on the topic.  Go figure.  And for the record I don't think Viagra works like a lust potion. 

No it does not but it targets similar people. There is even more market for something better.

Here are Harry's thoughts from Storm Front.That doesn't sound like consent. 

It was an accident which underlines again that the problem is not the potion itself but how it is used.

Just for the record, I would die to have wild monkey sex one more time.  And given the state of my pump that statement might be prophetic.

It needs instructions for use.
You are not alone,

[Mr. Death]

Straw man.. Watsonian- Molly did so, intentionally, purposefully. she uses mind magic specifically Doyalist-Was done to show a parallel towards their next action a mental battle to displace the soul.
Even us common folk know the eyes are the gateway to the soul. GS shows us in the DF it is indeed through the mind one must attack the soul. Molly cast no counterspell to stop some hidden necromancy, she fought it with her Will through constructed defenses.

What strawman? Please keep your arguments based on the facts and keep that kind of attack out of this.

Yes, Molly did that. GS does not show us that one "must" attack the soul through the mind. It shows us someone trying to steal a body (who is explicitly kicking the other soul out), and someone defending by using a soulgaze.

It does not establish that this is the one and only way that anyone who wants to do anything to a soul has to go through the mind. Mort doesn't do any mind magic, but he manipulates souls (as seen when he puts Butters back in his body).

As far as what info the books gave us, entering by itself pose no harm. Rewiring things inside is the problem.

In Turn Coat, Harry tells Molly that just looking into Luccio's head is a violation. Because it is an invasion, same as if you're getting into a tree to watch someone getting undressed.

in book 13, Harry mentioned that he and Molly practiced entering each other's mind. Nothing bad came out of it.

Yes. After the White Council specifically made allowances for that practices, which they hadn't before because it was a law violation. Corpsetaker even says as much in Dead Beat, that Council mind defenses are weak because they are too afraid of breaking the law to practice.

Entering another's mind without permission seems to be harmless also. Molly did that to Harry in book 10 and to Luccio in book 11. It is however forbidden by the council's laws of magic. But as far as I can see, just entering another mind cause no arcane damage. It might cause psychological damage, but not arcane damage.

Morgan tried to shoot Molly for it, and Harry outright says that it's a law violation what she did, and therefore the Wardens will want to kill her for it.

It might well be that "just" looking causes less damage, but it is still an invasion of one's privacy.

Influencing another's mind is trickier. Influencing is one step closer to rewiring, but the books gave us examples where such influencing is either accepted practiced or tacidly allowed.By the White Council, yes. Who, again, are not necessarily on the money when it comes to the laws and how they work in a cosmic sense.

Spells of suggestions are the most common examples. Even Harry uses it to ward his temporary hideout in book 11 and Morgan himself accepted the use of such spells. Veils also influenced people's mind" "Nothing going on here", "Just a background" and so on. Suggestion, distraction, seduction, temptation are all influencing minds, and to a certain extent such things are sort of allowed.

They're influencing the mind in the way that camoflage would -- they're not going in and either looking at or rewriting things; they're just making suggestions. The mind is not changed; the memories are intact, and the spellcaster does not gain knowledge.

Which is why I can accept love potions as legal in the eyes of the 7 laws. Apparently influencing another's mind is considered all right to a certain extent.

The love potion that Harry brews has no mind-changing component; it lowers inhibitions the way alcohol does, but it doesn't go in and say, "Love this person."

It is all depends on how the wizard achieve his or her goals. Illusion magic that directly input images into another's mind is illegal, but use hollomancy and similar results are considered legal. Hypnotizing a woman to be a seks slave is a big no no, but magic or potions that cause sexual overdrive on the physical body or cause addiction could make a woman into a seks slave just the same and I think the council's 7 laws does not cover that.

Same with the first law. Burning someone with fire magic is a capital crime, but immobilize someone with air magic and than shoot them dead with a gun is legal.

Yep. The laws are fiddly like that.

What's the point for the 7 laws then?
The point is damage control. Practically speaking, it is not that the council does not want to include the concept of justice in it's laws, but I think they simply does not has the strength to enforce such a law.

It is said that there is about 5000 wizards in the world. Practically 5000 super humans.

You simply cannot constrain such a power. If you restrict wizards too much, they'll rebel. There'll be a war.

Merlin's 7 laws of magic is about the most the wizard community could tolerate, and I strongly suspect wizardkind initially accepted such a rule because Merlin is simply too powerful to defy openly at the time.

Yup, this exactly. As Luccio says, the laws aren't about right and wrong; to an extent, the first four are about maintaining free will. The last three are wrong in the, "This is cosmically a bad idea" sense, if not a moral sense.

[Arjan]

In Turn Coat, Harry tells Molly that just looking into Luccio's head is a violation. Because it is an invasion, same as if you're getting into a tree to watch someone getting undressed.

Because Molly had no invitation. Though to be sure about that you have to ask Luccio who is somewhat less strict in these things than Morgan or Harry as her behaviour in small favor showed when she did not protest when Molly looked in Harry's mind.

Yes. After the White Council specifically made allowances for that practices, which they hadn't before because it was a law violation. Corpsetaker even says as much in Dead Beat, that Council mind defenses are weak because they are too afraid of breaking the law to practice.

I doubt the white council can change the laws that easily.

Morgan tried to shoot Molly for it, and Harry outright says that it's a law violation what she did, and therefore the Wardens will want to kill her for it.

Morgan and bunny warlocks. I don't take his word as the last word on it. He wanted to kill Harry for Sue as well and Lucio clearly thought otherwise.

It might well be that "just" looking causes less damage, but it is still an invasion of one's privacy.

An invasion is only an invasion if there is no invitation. Otherwise why use the word invasion at all? That only makes sense if there is a non invading way to get in.

Influencing another's mind is trickier. Influencing is one step closer to rewiring, but the books gave us examples where such influencing is either accepted practiced or tacidly allowed.By the White Council, yes. Who, again, are not necessarily on the money when it comes to the laws and how they work in a cosmic sense.
They're influencing the mind in the way that camoflage would -- they're not going in and either looking at or rewriting things; they're just making suggestions. The mind is not changed; the memories are intact, and the spellcaster does not gain knowledge.
The love potion that Harry brews has no mind-changing component; it lowers inhibitions the way alcohol does, but it doesn't go in and say, "Love this person."
Yep. The laws are fiddly like that.
Yup, this exactly. As Luccio says, the laws aren't about right and wrong; to an extent, the first four are about maintaining free will. The last three are wrong in the, "This is cosmically a bad idea" sense, if not a moral sense.

[Wizard Sibelis]

What strawman? Please keep your arguments based on the facts and keep that kind of attack out of this.

Quiet simply, No. That's is an attack upon your argument, not your character, if you don't like being called on it don't try to go from "the mind has no natural door way so it's always invasion" to "It's necromancy, not just mind magic.". Your sentence I quoted was your attempt to redirect without confronting the issue, that it does indeed and DF has subtly showcased this fact, because you found your position lacking,  Non sequitur aka straw manning. *shrugs* i'm sorry if you've never realized this about your debate style but it tends to be the reasoning I can't communicate with you. BUT LETS ATTACK THE ISSUE HEAD ON! ... by simply drawing it forward into the light for the action itself... It is MINE style.

[peregrine]

A straw man argument is absolutely not a non-sequitur.

Which is to say that a straw man is setting up an opinion that the other person never actually gave so that you can argue against what you want, rather than what the other person said.

[Wizard Sibelis]

A straw man argument is absolutely not a non-sequitur.

Which is to say that a straw man is setting up an opinion that the other person never actually gave so that you can argue against what you want, rather than what the other person said.

And if you assume their argument is left of where it is(strawmanning) and then reply to that(non sequitur) instead of centerfield it becomes both...

[peregrine]

And if you assume their argument is left of where it is(strawmanning) and then reply to that(non sequitur) instead of centerfield it becomes both...

No.  No.  Absolutely not.

First, you said that they were the same.  Not both.  Not a straw man and a non sequitur, but "non sequitur aka straw manning."  Which is just flat out wrong.  And ignoring that, responding to a straw man you've set up is not a non sequitur, it's still part of the straw man argument.  It is in fact the whole point of using a straw man.  That's why you set one up.  So that you can argue against the position you have intentionally made weak.

Plus, you know, he wasn't actually setting up a straw man, he was just plain arguing with you.  Nothing about that involved declaring what you were thinking.

A true straw man into non-sequitur would be something like;

A: I don't think the death penalty is justified given the risk of executing an innocent person.
B: Oh, so we might as well just let everyone walk free?  What crimes have you committed that you are worried about being discovered?

[Wizard Sibelis]

No.  No.  Absolutely not.

Yes, absolutely. The reply to your own straw man is not sequitur to your opponents actual points, ergo they tend to happen in tandem becoming an inseparable entity, aka the same thing in execution.

Plus, you know, he wasn't actually setting up a straw man, he was just plain arguing with you.  Nothing about that involved declaring what you were thinking.

This

There corpsetaker didn't need the soulgaze. Molly initiated that. And besides, what the corpsetaker does is soul based in the first place. It's necromancy, not just mind magic.

has nothing to do with

If there's no door, they still have to break in.

This statement to which I replied. I was supplied a straw man by omission in a reply that was non sequitur to the convo at hand. I really don't care what kind of magic it was corpsetaker did, it in no way gainsays the original point of my reply. The mind has it's own way's in, it always has as per even our own real world knowledge towards empathy, which describes Molly before the idea of magical telepathy.

[Arjan]

Entering someones mind is not that different from how the fallen from the coins enter your mind. From what we have seen of how Lasciel operates she needs an invitation to get into your mind. She can bribe, threaten, blackmail and trick you to get that invitation but she needs it or at least it makes things easier for her.

Bob went with butters for a ride. He got an invitation and a contract. Bob is the product of a human mind. and something else.

The mind can let things in and invitation matters. one of those things is the mind of another wizard.

[Mr. Death]

Peregrine has the right of it. I don't see how anything I did constitutes "strawmanning," because that, by definition, involves putting words into someone else's mouth.

All I'm actually doing is making separate points.

Now, please, I ask again that we discuss the facts here.

Because Molly had no invitation. Though to be sure about that you have to ask Luccio who is somewhat less strict in these things than Morgan or Harry as her behaviour in small favor showed when she did not protest when Molly looked in Harry's mind.

From what I recall, what Molly did in SF was under the table, too -- a violation that Luccio ordered and allowed -- but didn't report.

And again -- just because the Council allowed it doesn't mean it doesn't break the laws. Harry's mentioned "grey magic" before, and we've also had Luccio in a short story considering killing a bunch of warlocks with a fire spell.

I doubt the white council can change the laws that easily.

In Ghost Story, Harry explicitly says the Council, in response to what I presume are the events of Turn Coat, changed how it does things in regard to mind magic:

The White Council hated mind magic, generally speaking. If you
beat someone’s defenses, you could do a lot of things to them,
and precious few of them were good. Events, however, had forced
them to acknowledge the necessity of giving all of its members
lessons in psychic self-defense that were more comprehensive
than the simple wall technique that I’d been briefly introduced to. A
couple of old-timers who knew how to play the game had begun
dispensing the basics to everyone interested in learning.

Morgan and bunny warlocks. I don't take his word as the last word on it. He wanted to kill Harry for Sue as well and Lucio clearly thought otherwise.

That's fair. But we also have Harry considering it a violation:

“You broke one of the Laws of Magic, Molly. Willfully. Even
though you knew it could cost you your life. Even though you knew
that it could also cost mine.” I shook my head and looked away
from her. “Hell’s bells, kid. I choose to trust Anastasia Luccio
because that’s what people do. You don’t ever get to know for
sure what someone thinks of you. What they really feel inside.”

An invasion is only an invasion if there is no invitation. Otherwise why use the word invasion at all? That only makes sense if there is a non invading way to get in.

That's like saying, "Why use the word stabbing at all? That only makes sense if there's a non-stabbing way to stick a knife in someone."

Just because you use a word for something doesn't mean there has to be an opposite.

Entering someones mind is not that different from how the fallen from the coins enter your mind. From what we have seen of how Lasciel operates she needs an invitation to get into your mind. She can bribe, threaten, blackmail and trick you to get that invitation but she needs it or at least it makes things easier for her.

Bob went with butters for a ride. He got an invitation and a contract. Bob is the product of a human mind. and something else.

The mind can let things in and invitation matters. one of those things is the mind of another wizard.

I don't think Bob went in Butters' mind, but in his body, like he rode along with Mister.

And Lasciel was in Harry's soul -- part of it, even -- not his mind. They might be linked, and they might be related, but they're distinct things. Molly has a talent for mind magic; Mortimer has a talent for spirit and soul magic; they're treated as different specialties, with different types of spells that affect people in different ways.

The mind has it's own way's in, it always has as per even our own real world knowledge towards empathy, which describes Molly before the idea of magical telepathy.

That's not what empathy is. Empathy is being able to understand how another's feeling, i.e., seeing signs in their behavior, or in what they tell others; in Dresden, it's the ability to feel what others are radiating out or otherwise broadcasting. Harry refers feeling emotions "coming off" of people. So does Molly. To my knowledge, neither of them refer to empathy or sensing emotions as them looking into someone.

[peregrine]

That's like saying, "Why use the word stabbing at all? That only makes sense if there's a non-stabbing way to stick a knife in someone."

Well, it'd be like calling any surgical procedure "assault," rather than "stabbing."  The consent makes a huge difference.  Stabbing someone with a knife includes both assault and surgery, in the same way that entering someone's mind includes both invasion and being a guest.

[morriswalters]

Just to add a little humor, surgeons don't stab, they slice and dice.  The stab comes when you get the bill.  And in case you missed it, advertising is built on hacking your mind.  So wizards are falling behind us mere mortals.  JB needs to bring the WC up to speed or risk reality overtaking them.  Certainly there is someone in the WC at least looking into it, or else they couldn't teach anyone anything. And not to make too fine a point, JB is kind of fluid in exactly what constitutes black magic.   

[Wizard Sibelis]

All I'm actually doing is making separate points.

Oh, you'd just intended to ignore my own points apparently. While making non Germaine ones about the type of magic corpsetaker uses...