Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Arjan]

I think it's still a violation, permission or not.

Put it this way -- if someone sticks a knife in me and slices from my bellybutton to my ribcage, it's going to affect me and them in a profound way for days, weeks or even years.

That applies whether it's someone who knifed me during a robbery gone wrong or whether it was a doctor to whom I not only gave explicit permission, but paid good money to do so.

Giving permission doesn't change the nature of the act as an invasion into a place that's not meant to be invaded.

That is exactly what happens if a surgeon uses his scalpel to remove a stone from your bladder.

[peregrine]

A house has doors and such that are intended to be opened and closed to let people in and out.

The human brain does not. The only way for someone to access the information in there is to "break in."

You can "let someone into your heart."  And if you can get into someone's mind, then obviously you can get out of your own.  Unless it's a theft for you to leave your own mind by your own decision.

[Arjan]

A house has doors and such that are intended to be opened and closed to let people in and out.

The human brain does not. The only way for someone to access the information in there is to "break in."

Your eyes are the doors to your soul, that is how a soul gaze works.

And you can open that door for someone else as we have seen several times. Any help for peabodies victims would have been impossible otherwise. Some of them were changed into walking suicide bombs.

[Mr. Death]

Your eyes are the doors to your soul, that is how a soul gaze works.

And you can open that door for someone else as we have seen several times. Any help for peabodies victims would have been impossible otherwise. Some of them were changed into walking suicide bombs.

To the soul, not the mind. And they're a window, not a door -- you can see in, but that doesn't mean you can go in.

And helping Peabody's victims is like the surgery -- yes, you're helping. Yes, they're glad you helped. You still have to, metaphorically speaking, pick the lock to get in.

You can "let someone into your heart."  And if you can get into someone's mind, then obviously you can get out of your own.  Unless it's a theft for you to leave your own mind by your own decision.

The heart is also not the mind.

And getting "out" of your own mind isn't an issue. The laws only govern going into someone else's head.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Mmm and yet the law specifically cites invading the mind of another, a denotation of force, instead of saying entering into another's mind or even breaking it.

[Mr. Death]

Mmm and yet the law specifically cites invading the mind of another, a denotation of force, instead of saying entering into another's mind or even breaking it.

I am positing that any "entering" is by nature an invasion.

You're going into a place you're not intended to be, and it is traumatic by nature because you have to break through natural barriers to get in.

We haven't seen any such interactions described as one person "opening the door" for another, or the person being "entered" doing anything to facilitate or bring the other person in. It's always the other way around -- the person doing the entering is doing something to get in.

[Arjan]

I am positing that any "entering" is by nature an invasion.

There is something called free will in the dresdenverse. You can invite someone.

You're going into a place you're not intended to be, and it is traumatic by nature because you have to break through natural barriers to get in.

There is no evidence in the books about that. It starts getting traumatic when emotional drives and so on are changed but that is logical.

We haven't seen any such interactions described as one person "opening the door" for another, or the person being "entered" doing anything to facilitate or bring the other person in. It's always the other way around -- the person doing the entering is doing something to get in.

That does not matter as long as you are invited. If the door is unlocked you can open it if you have an invitation.

I do not think Harry would break the laws in weekly training sessions with Molly after all the effort he did to help her not to break it anymore. These sessions were legal.

The Gatekeeper must have entered minds to help wizards. There was too much information around about what Peabody had done.

And entering someones mind with an invitation should not be that difficult. Harry and Elaines communication spell seems to work that way. Harry was really in Elaines mind in White Night.

Compare it with the normal body. Sure most of the time it is illegal to stab someone but sometimes it is a surgeon with a scalpel and he tries to heal you.

And that surgeon is invited. You usually don't do surgery if the patient really does not want it.

[Mr. Death]

There is something called free will in the dresdenverse. You can invite someone.

If there's no door, they still have to break in.

There is no evidence in the books about that. It starts getting traumatic when emotional drives and so on are changed but that is logical.

It's putting yourself where you otherwise are incapable of going. That kind of thing is traumatic by nature. Same reason owning ways makes the fabric of reality weaker.

That does not matter as long as you are invited. If the door is unlocked you can open it if you have an invitation.

But there isn't a door. The mind is not a thing people can get into in normal circumstances. There isn't away for people to put others into their minds. That's part of the point Dresden is making when he tells molly that looking-- just looking-- in Luccio's head is breaking the laws.

I do not think Harry would break the laws in weekly training sessions with Molly after all the effort he did to help her not to break it anymore. These sessions were legal.

Harry outright says that the white council relaxed its normal restrictions on mind magic to make those training sessions legal.

The Gatekeeper must have entered minds to help wizards. There was too much information around about what Peabody had done.

Remember that the White Council's enforcement of the laws does not necessarily match the cosmic nature of them. Sticking a knife into someone is traumatic. Even if it's "allowed" because that person is a doctor.

And entering someones mind with an invitation should not be that difficult. Harry and Elaines communication spell seems to work that way. Harry was really in Elaines mind in White Night.

Communicating over surface thought appears to work differently. Harry didn't get any deeper that the literal conscious thoughts she was having in the moment. Like the Merlin's communication spell in Turin Coat.

Compare it with the normal body. Sure most of the time it is illegal to stab someone but sometimes it is a surgeon with a scalpel and he tries to heal you.

Yes. But, the important thing is, you still need weeks to heal until the hole in you closes.

And that surgeon is invited. You usually don't do surgery if the patient really does not want it.

And that permission does not change the fact that the knife is doing damage to your body that is traumatic and takes considerable time to heal, whether the procedure was ultimately beneficial or not.

[Wizard Sibelis]

If there's no door, they still have to break in.

Molly and Corpsetaker engage in mental combat via a soul gaze. The eyes link to the mind, to the soul. It's simply physiology that, mirror neurons fire in response to eye contact.

[Mr. Death]

Molly and Corpsetaker engage in mental combat via a soul gaze. The eyes link to the mind, to the soul. It's simply physiology that, mirror neurons fire in response to eye contact.

There corpsetaker didn't need the soulgaze. Molly initiated that. And besides, what the corpsetaker does is soul based in the first place. It's necromancy, not just mind magic.

[morriswalters]

The concept being struggled with here is called consent  If a love potion, or lust potion if it suits you better, actually works, then by definition you are operating without consent. If he/she wanted wild monkey sex with you then you wouldn't need it.  And straights like me can't make love potions. Which says magic to me.  I guess it only counts if you use magic words and a blasting rod.  Which fits WC thinking I guess.  He should have stayed with the printing on Harry's business card.

[Wizard Sibelis]

There corpsetaker didn't need the soulgaze. Molly initiated that. And besides, what the corpsetaker does is soul based in the first place. It's necromancy, not just mind magic.

Straw man.. Watsonian- Molly did so, intentionally, purposefully. she uses mind magic specifically Doyalist-Was done to show a parallel towards their next action a mental battle to displace the soul.
Even us common folk know the eyes are the gateway to the soul. GS shows us in the DF it is indeed through the mind one must attack the soul. Molly cast no counterspell to stop some hidden necromancy, she fought it with her Will through constructed defenses.

[Arjan]

The concept being struggled with here is called consent  If a love potion, or lust potion if it suits you better, actually works, then by definition you are operating without consent. If he/she wanted wild monkey sex with you then you wouldn't need it.  And straights like me can't make love potions. Which says magic to me.  I guess it only counts if you use magic words and a blasting rod.  Which fits WC thinking I guess.  He should have stayed with the printing on Harry's business card.

How old are you? As a young boy I could have wild monkey sex any time I wanted but only with myself. If you get older and your body deserts you in small ways and pressure builds up with job and family and you get tired sooner and not enough sleep anyway.

There is a huge market in viagra. If your partner tells you not now it can just mean that she is too stressed, too tired or emotionally empty after a long day at work. You would both like wild monkey sex but it is just not possible.

Now Harry makes that nice potion.

Really, Ill doers are ill deemers.

[huangjimmy108]

I am positing that any "entering" is by nature an invasion.

You're going into a place you're not intended to be, and it is traumatic by nature because you have to break through natural barriers to get in.

We haven't seen any such interactions described as one person "opening the door" for another, or the person being "entered" doing anything to facilitate or bring the other person in. It's always the other way around -- the person doing the entering is doing something to get in.

As far as what info the books gave us, entering by itself pose no harm. Rewiring things inside is the problem.

in book 13, Harry mentioned that he and Molly practiced entering each other's mind. Nothing bad came out of it.

Entering another's mind without permission seems to be harmless also. Molly did that to Harry in book 10 and to Luccio in book 11. It is however forbidden by the council's laws of magic. But as far as I can see, just entering another mind cause no arcane damage. It might cause psychological damage, but not arcane damage.

Influencing another's mind is trickier. Influencing is one step closer to rewiring, but the books gave us examples where such influencing is either accepted practiced or tacidly allowed.

Spells of suggestions are the most common examples. Even Harry uses it to ward his temporary hideout in book 11 and Morgan himself accepted the use of such spells. Veils also influenced people's mind" "Nothing going on here", "Just a background" and so on. Suggestion, distraction, seduction, temptation are all influencing minds, and to a certain extent such things are sort of allowed.

Which is why I can accept love potions as legal in the eyes of the 7 laws. Apparently influencing another's mind is considered all right to a certain extent.

It is all depends on how the wizard achieve his or her goals. Illusion magic that directly input images into another's mind is illegal, but use hollomancy and similar results are considered legal. Hypnotizing a woman to be a seks slave is a big no no, but magic or potions that cause sexual overdrive on the physical body or cause addiction could make a woman into a seks slave just the same and I think the council's 7 laws does not cover that.

Same with the first law. Burning someone with fire magic is a capital crime, but immobilize someone with air magic and than shoot them dead with a gun is legal.

What's the point for the 7 laws then?
The point is damage control. Practically speaking, it is not that the council does not want to include the concept of justice in it's laws, but I think they simply does not has the strength to enforce such a law.

It is said that there is about 5000 wizards in the world. Practically 5000 super humans.

You simply cannot constrain such a power. If you restrict wizards too much, they'll rebel. There'll be a war.

Merlin's 7 laws of magic is about the most the wizard community could tolerate, and I strongly suspect wizardkind initially accepted such a rule because Merlin is simply too powerful to defy openly at the time.

[Arjan]

No set of laws covers all bad behaviour. There are Allways a lot of things allowed by law that you should not do anyway if you have a conscience. The saying it is OK because it is legal can point to a psychopath.