Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Arjan]

Brewing a love potion wouldn't violate the Law, but slipping it to someone against their will might count for the purposes of enforcement. Similarly to owning a gun; I have it, but my use of it is restricted. I don't break any laws until I disobey those restrictions.

Now, here's a question: was the Three-Eye drug Victor Sells brewed illegal by Council Law? Or was it illegal to distribute? Harry says the potions he sees in Sells's clubhouse have a nasty, black-magic-ish aura, but is that just Harry's interpretation of how horribly the potion corrupts the user?

It is definitively Harry’s interpretation but other wizards would see, smell or hear something similar depending on how white, black or grey they themselves are.

I think what you see with the sight can be a symbolic representation of what is going on adapted to your personality.

He violated a bunch of other Laws regardless, so he'd be executed no matter what, but if he had just stuck to the drug trade without the murder and demon-summoning, would he have been?

Maybe not, it is sometimes difficult to guess how the council sees these things. Adding layers of insulation seems to matter. So if Victor had made a deal with a fairy to make the potion for him? No law would have been broken.

[Fcrate]

If Morgan thought so (and I hope/presume you're speaking from his point of view and not your own), he would have said so.

Given he doesn't seem to pay her any mind, I doubt he's jumping to those kinds of conclusions.

Yes, I'm speaking from his point of view. And I won't derail the thread further by discussing basic human bias tendencies. My point is: Morgan most likely knew about the potion, and didn't care.

[Paviel]

The Three-Eye makes a pretty good point of comparison to the love potion, actually. Harry could tell, without even opening his Sight, that the junkie in the police station had had his mind invaded by the Three-Eye; the love potion's effect on Susan wasn't nearly so harmful.

[Mr. Death]

Yes, I'm speaking from his point of view. And I won't derail the thread further by discussing basic human bias tendencies. My point is: Morgan most likely knew about the potion, and didn't care.

I still don't see anything to support the idea that he could have known about it, let alone that he "most likely" knew.

He wasn't present when it was made -- or else he would have lopped off Harry's head just for having Bob.

He wasn't present when it was used -- otherwise he would have known that the Demon was sent to attack Dresden.

He does not keep tabs on everything magical Harry does -- otherwise he would not have suspected Dresden in the first place.

So where is he getting this supposed knowledge of the love potion?

[Paviel]

He wasn't present when it was used -- otherwise he would have known that the Demon was sent to attack Dresden.

He was present very soon after it was used, though.

The question is, did Susan purge every last trace of it from her system in the meantime? If it's as similar to alcohol as Bob suggested, I'd say probably not.

[vultur]

i'd bet since it effects the emotions and physiology over the psyche it's in the same grey area of free will violation that lets Whites be residents here.

The Laws of Magic are irrelevant to the White Court. The Council can't go after them for enthralling people because of the Accords.

Also, the White Court feeding isn't a spell. White Court vampires are basically humans with Hunger spirits/demons glued to their souls; the Hunger gives the vampire powers and draws life from people through emotions.

[vultur]

Now, here's a question: was the Three-Eye drug Victor Sells brewed illegal by Council Law? Or was it illegal to distribute? Harry says the potions he sees in Sells's clubhouse have a nasty, black-magic-ish aura, but is that just Harry's interpretation of how horribly the potion corrupts the user?

I doubt it - all ThreeEye seems to do is open your Sight. It doesn't change your will. It's absurdly dangerous to use, but I don't think it would have been a violation of the Law in and of itself.

The black magic Harry notices might just have been "this is really dangerous", or it might have been a reflection of the potion being made in dark rituals by a badly corrupted warlock. A potion with the exact same effect made by someone else might not have had a black magic "aura" when seen through the Sight.

[Wizard Sibelis]

The Laws of Magic are irrelevant to the White Court. The Council can't go after them for enthralling people because of the Accords.

Also, the White Court feeding isn't a spell. White Court vampires are basically humans with Hunger spirits/demons glued to their souls; the Hunger gives the vampire powers and draws life from people through emotions.

Yep, and I didn't say a word about the white council, I speak of resident of reality as in not pissing off the supervisor by straight up breaking free will by forcing them into psychic sex. They don't actually effect the mental persona, it can be resisted. compare that to Susan on Love potion ecstasy. Our great leader says 'free will in my sandbox' those who violate that tend to get evicted. Also, this free will violation is the impermeable truth behind the 7 laws anyway, so they similarity is not entirely wrong of you.

[vultur]

Yep, and I didn't say a word about the white council, I speak of resident of reality as in not pissing off the supervisor

Ah, I thought you meant resident of reality as in "why the Wardens haven't killed them all yet".

I think the Heaven powers only act directly against violations of free will originating from Hell, though they may empower mortals to act against other ones (the Red Court didn't get vaporized by angels, but the Swords were involved in their demise). The Black Court totally destroy people's free will - faith power damages them horribly, and Michael's killed a bunch of them, but they don't get Uriel-zapped.

[Warbird]

So I was thinking more about this and it seems that the laws of magic (as defined by the White Council) are pretty particular with what they find to be violations and what doesn't.  As someone pointed out above, Third-Eye was a potion that caused all sorts of harm to the user but the WC didn't seem to care about that.  I guess it makes sense when the only penalty for violation is death (which I get into a bit more below). 

While I don't agree with the WC on this, I think it clear from the text that Jim doesn't agree either.  The WC is constantly portrayed as out of date, out of touch, etc., not good qualities.  We even see with Harry how the laws being so clear cut on what technicality is a violation and what is not is not a good thing.  Yes, Harry killed someone using magic, but it was in self-defense (and while the can apply, that barely seemed to in Harry's case). 

So my end thought is that whether or not something violates the laws is kind of meaningless.  The laws seemed designed not to help people but simply to prevent near catastrophic situations.  I think this is mistake, but I feel the books present it as such.  The WC isn't very interested in the mortal world (except with respect to them living there).  Which caused them tons of issues.  They seem to have no liaisons with law enforcement or even involvement with the lesser practitioners (i.e. the non-wizards).  If they did then I would imagine they would go after things like Third-eye or love potions.  But that's really another discussion. 

[Arjan]

Luccio had a point.

Morals are not universal. Maybe they should be, and it should be my set of morals of course, but in practice not everybody has the same set but people believe in their own morals above those of everyone else

The white council as a worldwide organisation is too fragile, it will fall apart if the senior council tries to enforce moral standards too far from the highest common denominator.

They are also a secret society led by a gerontocracy who grew up when slavery and colonialism were normal and even good things. And got you killed for things we don’t even see as wrong.

I don’t want them to pick kids of the streets for breaking laws they never heard of more than necessary.

They are not the right tool for the job so they lowered their ambition level.

[Paviel]

Morals are not universal. Maybe they should be, and it should be my set of morals of course, but in practice not everybody has the same set but people believe in their own morals above those of everyone else

Arjan is right. The closest thing there is to a universal morality is the Golden Rule, or "Treat others the way you want to be treated." But no two people want to be treated exactly the same way, so even the Golden Rule is not as universal in practice as it sounds in theory.

This is why legislating morality is such a problem; it's necessary to define exactly whose morality. It is quite reasonable, then, for the White Council to decide that the only "morality" they're going to legislate is "Don't make the monsters stronger."

[Quantus]

Magic that affects the mind is not itself against the Law (either at the Council Law level or the Universal one).  That's a big part of why it took two different Laws to cover it.  One is against mental Breaking & Entering, and the other is Thralling a person which is a fairly specific (if comprehensive) magical act; both directly Subvert Free Will. There are tons of mental magics that do not qualify, from the various Communication Spells we've seen, general deterrence wards and whatever else the Council uses when they meet (or execute) in Chicago, that Memory defense Spell of Elaine's, that Truth Spell of Luccios (I think), that Dont Notice Me potion from FM, the any phantasm-based illusion, etc etc.

In the case of the Potion, it upped the crap out of her sex drive but from the outside it's hard to say it if was a chemical vs a psychological effect.  Neither would qualify as full Thralling or as Mental B&E like implanting a Nightmare would be.  Hell, I could see the argument that Molly wouldnt have been breaking the laws if she'd just evoked an ambient fear response each time she witnessed her friend Using, instead of actually Implanting a persistent Nightmare. 

[groinkick]

The love (or more accurately lust) potion I think would be awesome to have if there weren't any side effects.  I'd say that on more than one occasion a married couple, or just a couple in general want to get that "spark" back in their relationship.  How better than to both take a swig of the potion and then spend the night having incredible sex?

[Mr. Death]

The love (or more accurately lust) potion I think would be awesome to have if there weren't any side effects.  I'd say that on more than one occasion a married couple, or just a couple in general want to get that "spark" back in their relationship.  How better than to both take a swig of the potion and then spend the night having incredible sex?

Are there side-effects to the one Harry brewed?

Yes, Susan puked, but I got the sense that had more to do with her drinking the escape potion while the love potion was still in effect.