Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Warbird]

So I was re-reading Storm Front (for the first time in a long time) and Bob convinces Harry to make a Love Potion.  Isn't this by definition a huge violation of the third law, forcible violation of a human mind?

I was confused since Harry didn't really object to making it despite Morgan practically hanging over his shoulder and it being a more clear violation of the White Council's laws.

I could chalk it up to being the first book and not everything being thought out but was wondering if Jim ever chimed in on this.

[Fcrate]

It's not a direct manipulation of free will, it just revs up the sex drive. They're not banning Cialis, are they?
Point is, it wasn't a love potion, as we view it. More like lust potion.

[Warbird]

Still it's using magic to alter someone without their permission.  Generally its the magical equivalent of a roofie (not the same effect but the same purpose) and I'm just surprised that they are allowed under the White Council's laws. 

[Fcrate]

There's a lot of leeway in the council laws. They're not made to protect humans from exploitation by magic.
You can alter their appearance by magic, use it to scam them out of their money, etc
As long as you don't kill them, or manipulate their mind, you're in the clear.

[Mr. Death]

In the RPG, Billy asks exactly this. Harry's answer is that it's not technically altering the person's mind or body -- it just lowers inhibitions by a lot, not much different from getting a girl liquored up.

So it's not a violation of the laws of magic, but it's sleazy as hell and not really a good thing to do either.

[Mira]

In the RPG, Billy asks exactly this. Harry's answer is that it's not technically altering the person's mind or body -- it just lowers inhibitions by a lot, not much different from getting a girl liquored up.

So it's not a violation of the laws of magic, but it's sleazy as hell and not really a good thing to do either.

Taking advantage of anyone liquored up can be seen as rape..  Liquor, drugs, love potions affect one's judgement, thus one's free will to make choices..   So yeah, it is a violation in my book.

[Mr. Death]

Taking advantage of anyone liquored up can be seen as rape..  Liquor, drugs, love potions affect one's judgement, thus one's free will to make choices..   So yeah, it is a violation in my book.

Oh, it's certainly a violation of something, just not of the Third Law of magic.

[groinkick]

Taking advantage of anyone liquored up can be seen as rape..  Liquor, drugs, love potions affect one's judgement, thus one's free will to make choices..   So yeah, it is a violation in my book.

The thing to remember about the laws of magic have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with protecting humanity from Warlocks, Outsiders, and those who would interfere with the flow of time.

[peregrine]

Keeping in mind of course also that Harry never actually intended to GIVE anyone that potion.  Presumably while it's bad optics, it's not a violation of the law (if it were one) until he actually uses it.

[Mira]

The thing to remember about the laws of magic have nothing to do with morality, and everything to do with protecting humanity from Warlocks, Outsiders, and those who would interfere with the flow of time.

 But it is about morality, it is ALL about morality, it is the basis of law..  A lot about black magic is it is a short cut to getting things done, because there are no rules..  You sneak a love potion in, innocent, just want to lower inhibitions... No harm, no foul... Really?  Not about morality, it is about protecting humanity from warlocks etc....  Well, consider, the young apprentice who has gotten far enough in his or her studies to make one and use it on someone he or she doesn't care to woo or who won't give them the time of day... Short cut to an end...  Harmless?  Think again the young wizard gets by with it, no thought of the repercussions for the object... Or the repercussions for the young apprentice who is now tainted by it, may become a bit lazy take more short cuts oh, now we have a warlock on our hands.. Or take Victor, some talent, got a hold of some books, perhaps the wrong books, but his original motives were not evil...  But then he found the short cuts, they got out of hand, suddenly he is a very dangerous sorcerer and people are getting their hearts torn out by remote control...   

[groinkick]

But it is about morality, it is ALL about morality, it is the basis of law..  A lot about black magic is it is a short cut to getting things done, because there are no rules..  You sneak a love potion in, innocent, just want to lower inhibitions... No harm, no foul... Really?  Not about morality, it is about protecting humanity from warlocks etc....  Well, consider, the young apprentice who has gotten far enough in his or her studies to make one and use it on someone he or she doesn't care to woo or who won't give them the time of day... Short cut to an end...  Harmless?  Think again the young wizard gets by with it, no thought of the repercussions for the object... Or the repercussions for the young apprentice who is now tainted by it, may become a bit lazy take more short cuts oh, now we have a warlock on our hands.. Or take Victor, some talent, got a hold of some books, perhaps the wrong books, but his original motives were not evil...  But then he found the short cuts, they got out of hand, suddenly he is a very dangerous sorcerer and people are getting their hearts torn out by remote control...   

I used to think the laws of magic were about morality but they aren't.  If Dresden went on a murdering spree killing magical beings left and right while not breaking the rules of hospitality or other rules he would not be punished by the Council.  Are those beings any less alive important? 

The potion doesn't violate the rules because A.  It doesn't destroy the person's mind the same way mind control does.  B. It doesn't twist the wizard like black magic does.  That's what matters to the Council, not if it's moral or not.

[forumghost]

Yeah, the Laws of Magic were never about Right or Wrong, they're about restraining Power.

It's Harry's biggest beef with the Council (it was his mother's as well actually).

Binder can be a one-man mercenary band, and the Council doesn't get involved, because technically the Laws weren't broken.

But Ascher killing her would-be Rapist in self defense? Off with her head!

[Sir Huron Stone]

Like it was said above, the Laws of Magic don't care about Morality, they care about the big things. You can use magic to rob banks, to make fake gold, to do all sorts of skeezy, illegal stuff. As long as it doesn't break the rules of magic, the White Council doesn't care.

They don't do anything about Binder because he didn't break the laws. The circumstances are skeezy, and treading close to the line, but doesn't cross it. However, they do monitor him, as shown by Morgan and Harry's actions and thoughts in Turn Coat.

They got involved in Ascher's case because she killed a man with magic. Without someone to stand before the  Council for her, they don't care about the circumstances. They only care about the end result. She killed a man with Magic.

Just like using the love potion to get with someone is totally wrong and illegal by most mortal laws. But the Council doesn't care about mortal laws. Just like how it didn't get involved in the World Wars, just because someone finds it repugnant and illegal, doesn't mean it is to everyone.

[Arjan]

A lust potion in itself is not even immoral. You can share it with your spouse on a nice holliday.

[Arjan]

From Turncoat:

“She was furious that ‘the Laws of Magic have nothing to do with right and wrong.’ She pointed out how wizards could use their abilities to bilk people out of their money, to intimidate and manipulate them, to steal wealth and property from others or destroy it outright, and that so long as the Laws were obeyed, the Council would do nothing whatsoever to stop them or discourage others from following their example. She wanted to reform the Council’s laws to embrace concepts of justice as well as limiting the specific use of magic.”
I frowned. “Wow. What a monster.”
She exhaled slowly. “Can you imagine what would happen if she’d had her way?”

And it goes on and on. The laws of magic have nothing to do with morality as explained by Captain Luccio.