Molly and the guy in black

[jbmdw45]

So... re-reading Skin Game, I was struck by two things at the end:

(1) Molly's body language with Harry at the end is fairly intimate. She un-selfconsciously hugs him around the neck, nods with her hair touching his, etc.

(2) When Molly was in Harry's head, she talked to the guy in black about the parasite. I wonder what else they talked about, don't you?

I feel like Molly knows now that she's got a shot with Harry and it's put her in a good, relaxed mood. I kind of feel like the thing with Murphy is not a resolution--it's just setting up a conflict so that it will be more painful for Harry (and Murph, and us!) when he winds up entangled with Molly and breaks Murphy's heart. (Just like Ric did with Murph's little sister! Ouch, again.)

[Mr. Death]

It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.

Hell, it basically forces her to be a horny flirt instead of spilling Winter secrets.

And then bad things happen.

So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.

[Wizard Sibelis]

It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.

Hell, it basically forces her to be a horny flirt instead of spilling Winter secrets.

And then bad things happen.

So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.

yea... that combined with Harry as WK thinking he's physically stronger than the Lady... and Michael already accepting of Harry when he thinks they've done the nasty(which was Harry's prime motive for NOT doing so after she grew up I think), and I see very nasty surprise coming.(wait, so is Harry going to impregnate Molly so she can qualify for Queen O.o )

[Mr. Death]

yea... that combined with Harry as WK thinking he's physically stronger than the Lady... and Michael already accepting of Harry when he thinks they've done the nasty(which was Harry's prime motive for NOT doing so after she grew up I think), and I see very nasty surprise coming.(wait, so is Harry going to impregnate Molly so she can qualify for Queen O.o )

Harry's prime motive was that he's known Molly since she was a child and it just feels wrong to him. I'm sure Michael and how he would react was one of the reasons, but not the prime one.

And Harry is not stronger than the Lady. He's a mortal with borrowed power, she's a minor goddess.

If anything, I'd say Molly's taking on the mantle cements that nothing is going to happen between the two any time soon. Harry doesn't want it, Molly knows it can't happen, Harry sure as hell isn't going to brute force it (i.e., rape her), and even if he tried the Lady mantle would tear him to shreds.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Harry's prime motive was that he's known Molly since she was a child and it just feels wrong to him. I'm sure Michael and how he would react was one of the reasons, but not the prime one.

actually his friends opinion of him matters a lot, and that whole know since she was a child thing really went away with the growing up... the mantle is only making his own thoughts louder there.

And Harry is not stronger than the Lady. He's a mortal with borrowed power, she's a minor goddess.

Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed. And Harry in his WK persona made this claim on a knowing level, not some two bit guess, couple that with the fact the defense mechanism is a bersker aspect and my claim stands.

If anything, I'd say Molly's taking on the mantle cements that nothing is going to happen between the two any time soon. Harry doesn't want it, Molly knows it can't happen, Harry sure as hell isn't going to brute force it (i.e., rape her), and even if he tried the Lady mantle would tear him to shreds.

A. willing participant, see their shared dream.(go ahead and try to claim either one of them don't do bondage and kink) B. Can't tear apart what you can't escape.
Good debating you again Death... I thought we'd previously agreed or I wouldn't have tried to reply to you... but it was nice to see you try again.

[Mr. Death]

actually his friends opinion of him matters a lot, and that whole know since she was a child thing really went away with the growing up... the mantle is only making his own thoughts louder there.

He's accepted she's a woman, but he has not expressed any change in opinion on the prospects of romance between them, so for the moment we can assume his other objections still stand -- i.e., he's still like 20 years older than her and basically her teacher, so, ew.

Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed. And Harry in his WK persona made this claim on a knowing level, not some two bit guess, couple that with the fact the defense mechanism is a bersker aspect and my claim stands.

A brief cutaway in which we saw none of the action is not a basis to claim that the entirety of the defense mechanism is solely physical berserker action.

We've seen what the Ladies can do, and the power they wield is well above what the Knight can. Molly casually freezes an entire church building in a split second in Cold Case. Her power is obviously, significantly amplified.

Look at the climax (ha HA) in Cold Days -- what's Maeve's play to stop Dresden at the end? Seduce him. Do you really think her plan would be, "Entice the Winter Knight to have his way with me," if she thought he could simply overpower her physically? Of anyone, Maeve would have had a pretty solid idea of her own limits versus those of the Knight, and she deliberately drew Harry in like that.

Ergo, Maeve was pretty damned confident that -- even in his nigh-berserker rape-beast mindset -- she could take Harry.

A. willing participant, see their shared dream.(go ahead and try to claim either one of them don't do bondage and kink)

If she's flying into a berserker rage and trying to maim him, she is no longer a willing participant. You've heard of "no means no"? Well, breaking someone's back and mauling them with claws also means "no," generally speaking.

B. Can't tear apart what you can't escape.

That ... doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about her "escaping" Harry (and, again, "escaping" implies she doesn't want to do this), and she won't have to "escape" him. She didn't "escape" Carlos -- she just horribly maimed him.

I mean, do you realize that what you're saying here amounts to, "Nah, it'll be OK, Harry is strong enough to force himself on Molly no matter how she physically protests and fights back"?

Doesn't that seem kind of wrong to you?

[jbmdw45]

It probably has more to do with her own mantle. Read Cold Case -- in it, we learn that like with the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady's libido gets a big shot in the arm.

*snip*

So basically, don't necessarily assume it's because Molly is comfortable hitting on Dresden, because chances are it's The Winter Lady being comfortable hitting on The Winter Knight.

I don't think it has to be an either/or thing, and there are external factors too like her increased self-confidence (which shows in her interactions with Harry much earlier, during the dream sequence). But "libido" isn't the vibe I was getting from Molly at the end. It was "warmth", and I don't think that's a Winter thing per se.

More to the point, if the guy in black is going out of his way to tell Harry to seduce Molly, do you think he's going to pass up the opportunity when he gets the chance to interact with Molly directly? No way. I don't know exactly what he would have said to her but I'm sure she would come out of that interaction feeling special and closer to Harry than before.

[jbmdw45]

Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed.

IIRC she does "draw upon Winter" right before she kicks a door (explosively?) off its hinges in the short story "Cold Case." Seems clear that she can be mighty when she wants to now.

The side effects are interesting too. (Laughing maniacally at death and destruction, and being vaguely bothered that she wasn't more bothered by it.) I think she will deal okay with it, just like Harry has, but we'll see.

[Fcrate]

Didn't Maeve dislocate Slate's shoulder with one kick (while remaining seated) in summer knight?
And another thing. Why does Butters and Harry himself) keep thinking that Harry got no real power boost from becoming the winter knight? I mean, we actually never see any significant change in his power level. Fix had no talent before becoming the summer knight, but after that he had enough juice to challenge Harry, and actually be reasonable threat to him.

[Wizard Sibelis]

He's accepted she's a woman, but he has not expressed any change in opinion on the prospects of romance between them, so for the moment we can assume his other objections still stand -- i.e., he's still like 20 years older than her and basically her teacher, so, ew.

Your opinion is not a deciding factor in a verse where that's the norm between master and apprentice opposites

A brief cutaway in which we saw none of the action is not a basis to claim that the entirety of the defense mechanism is solely physical berserker action.

Mmm, and yet the lack of more than physical damage would mean the other side of the coin has less evidence in and of itself making the idea more valid anyway.

We've seen what the Ladies can do, and the power they wield is well above what the Knight can. Molly casually freezes an entire church building in a split second in Cold Case. Her power is obviously, significantly amplified.

You do know what we're debating here?

Look at the climax (ha HA) in Cold Days -- what's Maeve's play to stop Dresden at the end? Seduce him. Do you really think her plan would be, "Entice the Winter Knight to have his way with me," if she thought he could simply overpower her physically? Of anyone, Maeve would have had a pretty solid idea of her own limits versus those of the Knight, and she deliberately drew Harry in like that.

Ergo, Maeve was pretty damned confident that -- even in his nigh-berserker rape-beast mindset -- she could take Harry.

Her ploy was simply to separate the desires of the WK from Harry, which worked perfectly.

If she's flying into a berserker rage and trying to maim him, she is no longer a willing participant. You've heard of "no means no"? Well, breaking someone's back and mauling them with claws also means "no," generally speaking.

and if she's trying to eat your face and kill you... this is a moot point, she's not the mantle, an if Harry knows her angst at all when it happens, then, like has happened before already, he'll follow the will of the person not the parasite trying to control them. *sigh* this is such a moot point I feel you just try to be contrary, at least argue because you believe it, not cause you wanna have one right...

That ... doesn't make any sense. We're not talking about her "escaping" Harry (and, again, "escaping" implies she doesn't want to do this), and she won't have to "escape" him. She didn't "escape" Carlos -- she just horribly maimed him.

I mean, do you realize that what you're saying here amounts to, "Nah, it'll be OK, Harry is strong enough to force himself on Molly no matter how she physically protests and fights back"?

Doesn't that seem kind of wrong to you?

Na it will be ok, He'll be able to give Molly her true desire by leu of th WK being able to physically take the WL... which coincidently look at Maeve and Slates relationship.. Slates particular disposition after he's been on the job awhile... and ask yourself what motives Maeve had when choosing said Knight? It's in his syle of clothes, the way they present themselves as a duo in Sk, ect. they're 'fond' of each other in that crazy fae way.
( I just realized without starborn they're sterile, cause they cant' 'change' otherwise... sweet, this disposition worked out in my favor)

[Mr. Death]

Your opinion is not a deciding factor in a verse where that's the norm between master and apprentice opposites

The "norm"? No. It's mentioned that it has happened, not that it's the "norm."

And "so, ew" is also Harry's opinion, based on ... him giving his opinion about it.

Mmm, and yet the lack of more than physical damage would mean the other side of the coin has less evidence in and of itself making the idea more valid anyway.

The Mantle was defending its own existence. Mab is very clear that the Mantle would be destroyed if Molly sleeps with a man. The Mantle has access to Winter's Wellspring, power that Molly was shown in that story to use -- almost casually -- to wipe out an entire room full of empowered enemies and kick the door in so hard it nearly exploded.

But yeah, let's say "extra grace/speed" so you can keep arguing that the Winter Knight -- who, again, has a portion of the power that the Winter Queens have access to -- can just overpower her. It's not like one of the elemental forces of nature is going to actually use any of its real power to defend its own existence.

Creatures of all sorts get more dangerous when they're defending their existence. You're positing that the Mantle of the Winter Lady would pull its punches and demonstrate a lot less power in defense of its existence than Molly has access to do when she's casually showing off. That supposition makes no sense.

You do know what we're debating here?

Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.

Her ploy was simply to separate the desires of the WK from Harry, which worked perfectly.

By drawing him in close and ratcheting up the "Rape and kill Maeve" impulse.

You don't induce an enemy to want to rape and murder you, then literally latch onto him, if you have any inkling that he's actually going to be able to do so.

and if she's trying to eat your face and kill you... this is a moot point, she's not the mantle, an if Harry knows her angst at all when it happens, then, like has happened before already, he'll follow the will of the person not the parasite trying to control them. *sigh* this is such a moot point I feel you just try to be contrary, at least argue because you believe it, not cause you wanna have one right...

So, Harry's just going to ignore the obviously impaired mindset of his prospective romantic partner to force sex on her despite her literally, physically fighting him back in defense of herself ... why again? Is Harry just doing this to get his rocks off, without caring about how Molly feels, or even if she's consciously experiencing it?

Molly completely blacked out when the Mantle was defending itself. I.e., she's not conscious or aware of what's happening when it takes over.

Are you really, seriously suggesting here that Harry should physically restrain someone who's not aware of what's happening so he can fuck her?

Because it sure as hell sounds like that.

Na it will be ok, He'll be able to give Molly her true desire by leu of th WK being able to physically take the WL...

Nothing in the books suggests this is possible. Mab speaks clearly -- sleeping with any Man will destroy the mantle. She does not make an exception for the Winter Knight in her statement.

which coincidently look at Maeve and Slates relationship.. Slates particular disposition after he's been on the job awhile... and ask yourself what motives Maeve had when choosing said Knight?

I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here. Maeve picked an asshole to be her Knight. So what? There's never any indication that they had a sexual relationship.

It's in his syle of clothes, the way they present themselves as a duo in Sk, ect. they're 'fond' of each other in that crazy fae way.

What. Maeve has to have Slate physically restrained because he is about to take a swing at her. And then she kicks him so hard she dislocates his shoulder. Slate, in turn says he's working with Aurora so that when he gets the Summer Knight power, he can take revenge on Maeve.

They both make it pretty clear that they hate each other and want to do one another harm.

"Fond" is not a word that describes them.

( I just realized without starborn they're sterile, cause they cant' 'change' otherwise... sweet, this disposition worked out in my favor)

Again, what? Where are you getting any of this from?

[Wizard Sibelis]

Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...

Yes -- in this particular sentence, whether the Winter Knight can overpower the Winter Lady, and more specifically, what the Winter Lady mantle confers on its wielder. You posited that it was just a boost in speed and grace, and the text of the story proves that supposition wrong.

Physically? The Ladies mantle don't seem to do a whole lot besides extra grace/speed.

regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?

[morriswalters]

Consider for a moment what JB has done to date. Were I a woman in Harry's life I would buy life insurance and wear body armor, he's bad ju ju for the women in his circle.   The count is three Ladies, ,one girlfriend and one fallen angel(or a shadow copy anyway).   And the mothers of his children should be very afraid.  He's two and oh on that score.  And that is not to mention Murphy being used a a punching bag or Anastasia Luccio being mind controlled and subjected to a body swap.  Oh yeah, and getting his apprentice a mantle she didn't want.

I personally think that Murphy should get her affairs in order and that Harry cheating on her with Molly should be the least of her worries.  Whatever Molly once was she is now subject to control by the Queen, and she is keeping secrets.

[Mr. Death]

Ekk Gads but my star and garters fricken hurt here...regardless of anything else to be added, anywhere, ever.... you plain just don't listen to what I actually am talking about do you? None of the Files have shown the Lady do anything physically the Knight couldn't do, and better, and then we have WK incorporated knowing he can take her? I'm done, an that's^^ precisely why. Anything you come back for that with is just plain going to be argumentative for the sake of argument.
*and if I had my copy of PG handy i'd readily prove that's not the same wording as 'it happens', It's a preferred arrangement by his own accounting. If you can remember his own ew i'm sure you cant just selectively forget that part because it disagrees, no?

Well, no, I read everything you wrote. One minor mistake on my part does not dismiss all the other arguments that you're not addressing. You don't get to decide what I am doing when I post, or why.

You were egregiously underselling the capabilities of the Winter Ladies and their mantles. So, I was pointing out the abilities we've seen Maeve and Molly exhibit during the books.

You argued that the only physical boost they got was to grace and speed, despite us seeing in the books that Maeve dislocated Slate's shoulder with a light kick, and Molly physically kicking down a pair of gigantic wooden doors to the point they nearly exploded -- both clearly feats of strength well beyond what their normal muscular and frames would have accounted for.

Ergo, your supposition that grace and speed is the only physical buff is clearly wrong.

You also argued that the only defense it would demonstrate to defend itself was physical, when that simply makes no sense. Why would a mantle defending its very existence hold back from using all the power at its disposal if it was under real, ongoing threat?

Egro, given what we've seen of the Winter Ladies, that the Winter Knight could so simply overpower them is just plain not a tenable suggestion.

You further argued that the Winter Knight has some kind of loophole that would bypass the Lady Mantle's rule against sleeping with any men. There is simply nothing in the books that states or suggests such a thing, and Mab's language was clear that she cannot sleep with any man.

I can't say why you're arguing this, but on the balance of the evidence, it certainly appears that you are heavily invested in Harry being able to stick his "blasting rod" into Molly, to the exclusion of other considerations.

And then there's the final point you didn't see fit to address: That, in your supposition, Harry would restrain, overpower and force sex on Molly while she is in the grips of the Mantle's automatic defense.

When in that state, she has no memory of her actions and no control over what she's doing; therefore, she cannot give consent.

Again, does that not seem wrong to you?

[Arjan]

Ah well they can not give consent anyway because they have no free will