Is Michael more than he appears?

[Wizard Sibelis]

Well, I was more talking about what would happen if Molly died, not her existence as Winter Lady. When she died in CD, did Lily's soul/spirit/whatever go on to some kind of afterlife, or did she just pop out of existence, or dissolve into the totality of Summer losing individual consciousness, or whatever happens to Fae when they die?

I wanna know what precisely happens to the host if they die but not on Halloween..

[vultur]

I wanna know what precisely happens to the host if they die but not on Halloween..

According to Bob, they just come back, though it might take months or years. Bob also talks about the "locked stasis of immortality" which is only malleable on Halloween. So it's probably something like the universe having a "saved state" of that being which is automatically restored, though it takes time.

Either that, or something like an uber-ghoul or the Red King's regenerative ability where severed bits re-connect, only scaled up to the point where ashes or individual atoms eventually recombine into the whole being. But I think the "saved state" idea fits better with immortals being static in nature -- it's not so much super-healing as them being an integral part of reality that just doesn't change.

[raidem]

It may be that they have saved storage in NeverNever.  Perhaps Mab would have a Save Point at Arctis Tor. And, Molly, or the Winter Lady, would have a Save Point at Arctis Minora.


The immortals then would have a seat of Power that assists in their storage and reconstitution.  Those immortals that don't have such a seat of Power may take longer to reconstitute.

[Kindler]

Interesting note: Hastings was fought on October 14 (Gregorian date, October 8 Julian). At the time, I'm pretty sure All Hallow's Eve was on November 1st (Samhain), but they swapped the dates around a bit (used to be in May, which may indicate that Summer was originally more prevalent) so I'm not entirely sure. Regardless, William had to march across England to get a bunch of independent-minded nobles to sign up with the Norman regime, and wasn't crowned until December 25th of that year (surely there was no intended symbolism there). They were still using the Julian calendar, so I think there's some wiggle room with the dates; Samhain might have been November 1st Julian, which would make it November 7th Gregorian, but the other way around gives a date of October 26th.

Anywho, it's possible that it wasn't at Hastings that a Lady died, but in the desperate bid to hold onto power in the weeks that followed.

[groinkick]

Here is a question.  If an Immortal is killed on a day that isn't Halloween, when they return do they lose a lot of their humanity since they had to rely 100% on the Mantle reanimating them?

[Arjan]

Here is a question.  If an Immortal is killed on a day that isn't Halloween, when they return do they lose a lot of their humanity since they had to rely 100% on the Mantle reanimating them?

The body is not the important part, it is about the spiritual essence, spirit and soul. As long as all the spiritual essence is preserved it does not really matter.

In skin game I had the strange feeling that Molly when she had to go to her fathers house in a hurry at the end of the book she just traveled in spirit form and assembled a body on the spot. Totally unprovable and probably not true but not impossible either.

[groinkick]

The body is not the important part, it is about the spiritual essence, spirit and soul. As long as all the spiritual essence is preserved it does not really matter.

In skin game I had the strange feeling that Molly when she had to go to her fathers house in a hurry at the end of the book she just traveled in spirit form and assembled a body on the spot. Totally unprovable and probably not true but not impossible either.

Yes but as you become to rely on the Mantle you are excepting it's influence.  So by dying and relying on it fully wouldn't that mean you're more likely to except the Mantle more fully?

[Arjan]

I think it is more about the choices you make under the mantles influence. If those choices are not the ones you would normally make, do not agree with who you want to be, then those choices will change you.

[Kindler]

Yes but as you become to rely on the Mantle you are excepting it's influence.  So by dying and relying on it fully wouldn't that mean you're more likely to except the Mantle more fully?

For what it's worth, I believe something similar to this would take place upon regeneration, not necessarily because they'd be relying on it fully, but because the Mantle itself (or whatever is powering it—Winter) rebuilds the shell. The closest real-life comparison I could make to it is an artificial intelligence being responsible for creating a new artificial intelligence. Does that make sense?

Also, to add on to my previous post about Hastings, I realize I forgot to make my main point: it's possible that Immortals can be killed (truly killed) by other means (such as, perhaps, a Knight of the Cross, or a Starborn making a specific, natural-order-disrupting choice).

[vultur]

I don't think we know enough about either the mechanism of Immortal regeneration or the mechanism of Mantle-driven "de-humanization" to decide what the result would be.

If the Mantle rebuilds the being from some "template", then it would "de-humanize" the being - if Molly got killed and rebuilt from a template of "archetypal Winter Lady" then the specifically Molly aspects would be gone.

If the Mantle "restores" from something like a "saved game", it wouldn't, because it would restore Molly to her state pre-death.

[Arjan]

I don't think we know enough about either the mechanism of Immortal regeneration or the mechanism of Mantle-driven "de-humanization" to decide what the result would be.

If the Mantle rebuilds the being from some "template", then it would "de-humanize" the being - if Molly got killed and rebuilt from a template of "archetypal Winter Lady" then the specifically Molly aspects would be gone.

If the Mantle "restores" from something like a "saved game", it wouldn't, because it would restore Molly to her state pre-death.

For some reason the mantle needs a host. Probably to add intelligence to the mix because the mantle on its own does not seem that smart.

The mantle can not exist on its own so it can not simply use a template and be done with it, it needs the host. There is some sort of symbiosis going on.

I think that if/when the host changes that is purely because of the choices the host makes. These choices are under the mantles influence of course but that does not change how these things work.

So if Molly really thinks it is an important job worth doing her soul will change more slowly because a lot of choices she makes will not change it.

Michael/Uriel have a speech about that in skin game.

[vultur]

For some reason the mantle needs a host. Probably to add intelligence to the mix because the mantle on its own does not seem that smart.

I'd say not just intelligence but a physical form -- maybe any ability to act at all. The mantle by itself, IMO, is essentially a thaumaturgic spell letting the person draw on "Winter" (permanent/not eroded by sunrise). I don't think it's even as individualized as White Court Vampires' Hunger spirits -- it seems like Harry, Maeve, and Mab are drawing on the same "Winter" source, though it affects them in different ways.

The mantle is a power cord, or at most a battery - it can't actually accomplish anything unless it's powering a device.

The mantle can not exist on its own so it can not simply use a template and be done with it

Well, maybe template is the wrong word, but the mantle does something to let Immortals come back to life when killed.

Bob talks about how eventually the Winter/Summer Lady becomes indistinguishable from the previous one, so there must be an "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady" that the Mantle tries to push its host into becoming.

What I'm wondering is, during the recovery-from-death process, does the mantle restore the Winter/Summer Lady as she was immediately before death, or does the process transform her into the "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady"?

I think that if/when the host changes that is purely because of the choices the host makes. These choices are under the mantles influence of course but that does not change how these things work.

For the Winter/Summer Knights definitely -- Uriel in GS and Mother Summer in CD make that pretty clear, IMO -- but the Knights aren't Immortals.

I think the case is a bit murkier for the Ladies. The clarifying WoJ about whether Molly lost her soul isn't much help, since it seems to be referring to loss of soul in the sense of damnation, not in the sense of being transformed into something that doesn't have a human-type soul or afterlife at all.

We have a POV from post-transformation Molly in Cold Case, so it's clear that she didn't become thoroughly transformed/soulless simply by becoming Winter Lady. I don't know that we can rule out Immortal post-death "restoration from saved game" changing that, though.

[Arjan]

I'd say not just intelligence but a physical form -- maybe any ability to act at all. The mantle by itself, IMO, is essentially a thaumaturgic spell letting the person draw on "Winter" (permanent/not eroded by sunrise). I don't think it's even as individualized as White Court Vampires' Hunger spirits -- it seems like Harry, Maeve, and Mab are drawing on the same "Winter" source, though it affects them in different ways.

The mantle is a power cord, or at most a battery - it can't actually accomplish anything unless it's powering a device.

Well, maybe template is the wrong word, but the mantle does something to let Immortals come back to life when killed.

Bob talks about how eventually the Winter/Summer Lady becomes indistinguishable from the previous one, so there must be an "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady" that the Mantle tries to push its host into becoming.

What I'm wondering is, during the recovery-from-death process, does the mantle restore the Winter/Summer Lady as she was immediately before death, or does the process transform her into the "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady"?

For the Winter/Summer Knights definitely -- Uriel in GS and Mother Summer in CD make that pretty clear, IMO -- but the Knights aren't Immortals.

I think the case is a bit murkier for the Ladies. The clarifying WoJ about whether Molly lost her soul isn't much help, since it seems to be referring to loss of soul in the sense of damnation, not in the sense of being transformed into something that doesn't have a human-type soul or afterlife at all.

We have a POV from post-transformation Molly in Cold Case, so it's clear that she didn't become thoroughly transformed/soulless simply by becoming Winter Lady. I don't know that we can rule out Immortal post-death "restoration from saved game" changing that, though.

The word "soul" can mean so many things that it is tricky to use. If we ignore the damnation (a damned soul is still a soul after all and how are you going to torture it for eternity if it is no longer there?) we can define the soul as that part of your essence, your non material self, that defines who you are. Your deep inner beliefs and motivations. If you loose that you are no longer yourself. That is what mother summer in cold days talked about and I think it was not just about Harry. It was about Maeve and Mab and even about herself.

That is what everyone was afraid of after ghost story, is he still himself? did he loose his soul?

How do you change your soul? By your choices. Of course there is always change so the term loosing your soul might be a bit arbitrary but maybe it is also about loosing the ability to change yourself, to grow.

Which is different from the damnation meaning. If Corpstaker had a sudden revelation and decided to become a good person and acted accordingly would she loose her soul? Maybe her fellow necromancer would think so.

But what influences our choices? Emotions and power comes with emotions. The winter knights mantle comes with some power and attached emotions. Every bunch of power from outside comes with a set of emotions. That is how Justine can regulate Thomas's moods via his diet.

The mantles are not just batteries with a connected charger. The mantles are power and so have emotions. Harry's mantle is just weaker than Molly's, Molly has a lot more power and is more restricted because of that.

More power opens new possibilities. Because power is also life it will repair the body and keep it young. Even the much smaller power of a wizard does that to some extend, immortality is partly just wizard healing in overdrive.

So much in overdrive that if you die your power just starts generating a new body and your shade just pops in. Just like Harry did in ghost story but with a new and well functioning body, no re-validation needed.

And the mantles emotions are the source of the change. Because all ladies had the same mantle with the same emotional make up the direction of that change is the same. And because the mantle is bigger the pressure is greater but not fundamentally different.

[raidem]

I had a thought about Michael, him wearing the Grace, and his seemingly 'inconvenient' though maybe convenient inability to get to his house to stop Nicodemus assault on his home and family.

I'm wondering if we will learn that Michael ended up getting a "Grace" mission during the time we didn't see him when Harry left him up to the point Uriel got his "Grace" back.  If Harry and company ever needs to go back in time really distantly, it could be they get use their power to get back to Skin Game to Michael.  Then use Michael to get back even further.  Basically, I'm saying that Jim could use Michael wearing a Grace in another plot.  Hell, maybe a Graced Michael could have shown up in the earlier books like say Small Favor when Michael, Harry go to the Train Station.  Or maybe Graced Michael has a showing in other books like maybe Storm Front, etc.

I think we need to allow for an Archangel Michael (our Michael) having done some things with the Grace at some point in the series and him appearing at any point within the series via Grace Powers even in the past relative to Skin Game.  This doesn't even touch upon the long term effects on Michael of having worn an Archangel's Grace.

[groinkick]

I had a thought about Michael, him wearing the Grace, and his seemingly 'inconvenient' though maybe convenient inability to get to his house to stop Nicodemus assault on his home and family.

I'm wondering if we will learn that Michael ended up getting a "Grace" mission during the time we didn't see him when Harry left him up to the point Uriel got his "Grace" back.  If Harry and company ever needs to go back in time really distantly, it could be they get use their power to get back to Skin Game to Michael.  Then use Michael to get back even further.  Basically, I'm saying that Jim could use Michael wearing a Grace in another plot.  Hell, maybe a Graced Michael could have shown up in the earlier books like say Small Favor when Michael, Harry go to the Train Station.  Or maybe Graced Michael has a showing in other books like maybe Storm Front, etc.

I think we need to allow for an Archangel Michael (our Michael) having done some things with the Grace at some point in the series and him appearing at any point within the series via Grace Powers even in the past relative to Skin Game.  This doesn't even touch upon the long term effects on Michael of having worn an Archangel's Grace.

Possibly...  Or Nicodemus realized that he could motivated Michael to fall by the threat of his family being killed.  This in and of itself could have been a test, one that Michael passed.  He proved that he has what it takes to bear such a power.  Perhaps Michael will acquire a vacant Grace one day.