Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?

[vultur]

Molly hasn't used black magic for years, but she still comes awful close to hitting Luccio in Turn Coat, saying something like "I wanted to make her understand." Molly knows it's wrong (morally and legally) to do that, but she still feels the urge, though she thankfully recognized it and stopped it.

I think that is the same thing as the taint.

Removing the taint from this do-gooder goes well, but they still want to help, right? To circumvent that, they either need to voluntarily not use magic in that way, through some kind of extended support group, psychological help, or whatever. Or, someone has to go into their head and mess around until they no longer want to use magic for that purpose. How could they do that without attacking their initial motivation, which was the desire to help those less fortunate? Wouldn't that make them a fundamentally worse person?

I don't think so. With the taint removed, if you explained to them that doing that did more harm than good, if their real motivation was to do good then they wouldn't do it any more.*

But even if not, a clever Blackstaff could get around that... You wouldn't have to attack their motivations at all, just make them not think of using magic in that particular way (exactly like what Mab did to Harry).

The way I see it, the only way to reform a warlock is for them to set aside their magic after removing the taint.

Well, it seems to have worked for Harry... the Winter Mantle temptations have nothing to do with black-magic corruption. He really hasn't shown any signs of that since he got rid of Lasciel's coin, arguably not since well before that (all the anger stuff in PG-WN might have been pure Lasciel influence; I'm not sure anything since GP is confidently attributable to black-magic effects).

It suggests that if you get them early and they really want you certainly can have an effect. All of those falling of the wagon incidents have been discussed here and none of them have been conclusive. They were all open for discussion. And given the stress they are both under I think that is quite remarkable.

Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

*The Council not allowing you to check for that is flat out suicidal on an organizational level in a world with White Court and a Black Council. Hopefully they've softened on that after TC... If checks for influence were standard for the Senior Council and the Wardens, Peabody could never have done all that damage.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Changes Chapter 46

indeed the tool itself wants to kill, not the wielder.

[Mira]

Sanya was surely cured and he did it himself. Cassius however was not even after he lost his coin. Centuries of whispering are not erased that easily either.

You can call it a "cure" I guess, but Sanya gave up the coin of his own free will, and redeemed himself of his own free will.. The coin had nothing to do with that , comparing the coins to the blackstaff is apple and oranges... 

Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.

Changes Chapter 46

Quote

    The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.

Yeah, and I believe that Eb told Harry at some point that it leaves it's mark on the wielder but at the moment the exact quote escapes me.

[Arjan]

You can call it a "cure" I guess, but Sanya gave up the coin of his own free will, and redeemed himself of his own free will.. The coin had nothing to do with that , comparing the coins to the blackstaff is apple and oranges... 

No comparison is 100% correct because then things would be identical but it is about how a comparison can help us. Some people can cure themselves and that is exactly what Sanya started when he threw away the coin.

He was helped by the insight he got when he heard the other denarians talk about him. A beginning warlock might get insights in other ways. Part of the problem is that young wizards have little or no knowledge about the dangers.

No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.

Sure it is but Harry's interpretation is pretty stern and he was trying to keep Molly safe. Molly did something similar when she looked at Harry in small favor and Luccio, who is sometimes somewhat more relaxed, did not say a thing. This is again a gray area.

[Mira]

Sure it is but Harry's interpretation is pretty stern and he was trying to keep Molly safe. Molly did something similar when she looked at Harry in small favor and Luccio, who is sometimes somewhat more relaxed, did not say a thing. This is again a gray area.

No, not a gray area, whatever her motive, she broke the Law... 

Turn Coat page256

"You broke the Laws of Magic, Molly.  Willfully.  Even though you knew it could cost you your life.  Even though you knew that it could also cost mine. 

Not a gray area at all, it could have cost them both their heads... Highlighted by Morgan's dying words to Harry about Molly...

page 394 Turn Coat

"I didn't tell them about Molly.  What she tried to do to Ana.  I. . . I didn't tell.

A couple of things going on, he is telling Harry in his own way that he was sorry for being such a hard ass with him.  He is telling him that he has hope that it will work out for Molly, that basically she is a good person..  However it doesn't change the fact that if he had turned her in, she would have lost her head, and along with it Harry would have lost his head.  She did break the Law of Magic,  and would have paid the price if Morgan had turned her in.

No comparison is 100% correct because then things would be identical but it is about how a comparison can help us. Some people can cure themselves and that is exactly what Sanya started when he threw away the coin.

He was helped by the insight he got when he heard the other denarians talk about him. A beginning warlock might get insights in other ways. Part of the problem is that young wizards have little or no knowledge about the dangers.

Except that isn't how the blackstaff works,  there is only one, and the wielder is assigned the office to wield it...  Yes, free will to accept the office, also the blackstaff isn't constantly in Eb's head, unlike the Fallen of the Coins..  True, young wizards have little knowledge when their talents awake without guidance from a mentor, but again this has nothing to do with the blackstaff...  If it were so simple that a young would be warlock could be so easily cured, why isn't Eb busily waving it at would be warlocks instead of them getting their heads lopped off?

[Arjan]

No, not a gray area, whatever her motive, she broke the Law... 

Turn Coat page256
Not a gray area at all, it could have cost them both their heads... Highlighted by Morgan's dying words to Harry about Molly...

page 394 Turn Coat
A couple of things going on, he is telling Harry in his own way that he was sorry for being such a hard ass with him.  He is telling him that he has hope that it will work out for Molly, that basically she is a good person..  However it doesn't change the fact that if he had turned her in, she would have lost her head, and along with it Harry would have lost his head.  She did break the Law of Magic,  and would have paid the price if Morgan had turned her in.

I know about turn coat but Harry and Morgan both have their reasons to interpret the laws as strict as possible, Luccio's silence in proven guilty still indicates that other interpretations are possible. No quotation from Turn Coat can change that.

And Molly was still under the doom so any act that looked a little bit gray could be dangerous for her especially if Harry stopped supporting her.

[peregrine]

indeed the tool itself wants to kill, not the wielder.

Yes.  But I was responding to the comment that it wanted to corrupt the user.  The part about it having its own sentience is unrelated to the fact that Jim has said it protects from corruption, not that it causes it.

[Wizard Sibelis]

The Council would definitely not give the power to kill with magic to someone who holds a tool that makes them want to kill more people with magic.

Conjecture.... and slightly oxymoronic lol.

[Mira]

I know about turn coat but Harry and Morgan both have their reasons to interpret the laws as strict as possible, Luccio's silence in proven guilty still indicates that other interpretations are possible. No quotation from Turn Coat can change that.

And Molly was still under the doom so any act that looked a little bit gray could be dangerous for her especially if Harry stopped supporting her

 Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...

[Arjan]

Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...

The laws are a fundamental part of Luccio's soul, she could not use magic to kill LaFortier even when completely under Peabodies control. Besides of she was not enthralled to such an extend that she could not function as captain of the wardens.

And in dead beat she did react differently to Sue than Morgan did.

Having a quick look to see if someone is tampered with may very well be a gray area.

Jim made it deliberately murky just to get more tension

Even more murky if you read Morgan's last words:

“I didn’t tell anyone about Molly. What she tried to do to Ana. I . . . I didn’t tell.”

Trying is not breaking the law. You only break the law if you succeed. Morgan's word is just not enough to confirm law breaking.

[Quantus]

Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...

Agreed on that, with the qualifier that the Act itself can be arguably Dark Grey rather than black. For example, it may have been the case when they were having to inspect and De-Program the entire council membership post-Peabody, we're talking about /mandatory/ psychic examination and 'treatment' by one of the top two most creepy Senior Council Members; or that time Molly "Examined" Harry to discover Mab's meddling and he sorta kinda maybe subconsciously gave her permission, but both Michael and Luccio did not object.   

[Mira]

Trying is not breaking the law. You only break the law if you succeed. Morgan's word is just not enough to confirm law breaking.

However attempting to murder someone is also a violation of the law...  Molly knew what she was doing, she deliberately tried to get into her head, whether she succeeded or not is beside the point, the mere act is a violation.

that time Molly "Examined" Harry to discover Mab's meddling and he sorta kinda maybe subconsciously gave her permission, but both Michael and Luccio did not object.   

Did he?  I doubt it, it was so important to Michael and a Holy Knight to know whether or not Lasiel still had a hold over Harry that he was willing to risk his daughter.. Not just immediately, as if caught she would lose her head, but sending her down the slippery slope to warlockhood, if it could be justified then what was to stop her in the future... As in later in Turn Coat she thought she was justified in going into Luccio's head then, as she thought the first time she did it.. As for Luccio, she was under Peabody's influence back when Molly went into Harry's head, so her actions on the matter are not really her own...

[groinkick]

However attempting to murder someone is also a violation of the law... 

If you're under the Doom this may be the case.  Not so with the laws of magic.  As I posted in another topic, the laws are not like our laws in the criminal justice system.  They are not about morality.  They are about magical corruption, warlocks, Outsiders, and time travel.  Attempting to kill someone with magic isn't the same as doing it.  It doesn't cause the same taint, at least from what I can tell.

[Mira]

If you're under the Doom this may be the case.  Not so with the laws of magic.  As I posted in another topic, the laws are not like our laws in the criminal justice system.  They are not about morality.  They are about magical corruption, warlocks, Outsiders, and time travel.  Attempting to kill someone with magic isn't the same as doing it.  It doesn't cause the same taint, at least from what I can tell.

But they are about morality,  why is there a law about going into someone's mind without their permission?   If you attempt to kill someone with magic once, just because you don't succeed that doesn't mean you won't try again and succeed... What is there to prevent you trying again... Yes, it does cause some staining

[Arjan]

But they are about morality,  why is there a law about going into someone's mind without their permission?   If you attempt to kill someone with magic once, just because you don't succeed that doesn't mean you won't try again and succeed... What is there to prevent you trying again... Yes, it does cause some staining

No they are not. The laws of magic are about restricting the use of magic, not about morality. Luccio explains this somewhere and there is also woj. Harry’s mother could not accept that either but that is what it is.

And with the laws of magic results are everything and intentions are nothing. There is also woj about that. If you by accident break the laws you are guilty. If you try however hard to break the laws but you don’t succeed you are not.

The white council can not kill every hack who wants to kill someone with magic but does not have the power or skill to succeed.

Molly’s situation was more complicated because she was already convicted, we do not know the exact implications of that but we know about Morgan and baby bunnies so don’t take his actions or words as what every warden would do.