The 5 gods of Lovecraft

[Foxed]

He did open up reality, that's how he became the gatekeeper.

... Citation needed.

Yea and the father of the previous GK was Dante Alighieri and that was wrote in... what 1300's and yet GK was around for thousands of years before that... So something is a Little Fishy over here too Black Cat guys...

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Course I have the answer for such craziness in the form of Epoch's/Aeon's of existence, mythological 'history' and repeating histories, but I digress...

Or Rashid wasn't the Gatekeeper when he took out Abd'Al-Hazred. Or Alighieri is older than we think because of the slow path. Or Abd'Al-Hazred lived longer than we thought after writing the Necronomicon. Or any number of other explanations.

Lots of stretches to make Gatekeeper Rashid into Nyarlathotep.

Not too big of a stretch to make him a Walker-- am avatar of an Outsider in this reality causing mischief?

[jonas]

... Citation needed.

Whahahaha! How deep down the rabbit hole can you go?

Or Rashid wasn't the Gatekeeper when he took out Abd'Al-Hazred. Or Alighieri is older than we think because of the slow path. Or Abd'Al-Hazred lived longer than we thought after writing the Necronomicon. Or any number of other explanations.

Lots of stretches to make Gatekeeper Rashid into Nyarlathotep.

Not too big of a stretch to make him a Walker-- am avatar of an Outsider in this reality causing mischief?

He's the father of the previous GK, not the GK, he'd not be in any slow path. Lot's of stetches to think he's just a walker and ignore any Rashid as Nyarla,

Rashid- Means "rightly guided" in Arabic.
Nyarlahotep.... it bears the historical Egyptian suffix -hotep, meaning "peace" or "satisfaction."
...In his first appearance in "Nyarlathotep" (1920), he is described as a "tall, swarthy man" who resembles an ancient Egyptian pharaoh.
...Nyarlathotep, however, is active and frequently walks the Earth in the guise of a human being, usually a tall, slim, joyous man. He has "a thousand" other forms, most of these reputed to be maddeningly horrific

Alhazred had been kidnapped in Damascus and brought to the Nameless City, where he had earlier studied and learned some of the Necronomicon's lore. As punishment for betraying their secrets, Alhazred was tortured. Then they blinded him, severed his tongue and executed him.

Who killed him in the DF? Oh... and why was he killed in the Lore...? Whose secrets then, the people who killed him right? Mmm... Seems like he caused an imbalance telling people about the Old Gods and they sent their avatar to do gruesome things in that imbalance, as I postulated GK would do in such an imbalance.

[groinkick]

Sorry...  Just don't think that Mother Winter would allow an Outsider, or Old One to watch the Gates for Nemfected people.  That's like having a fox keep an eye on the chicken coup.  Also don't think of Rashid is someone who delights in pain, and suffering. 

[groinkick]

Stephen King will be targeted by the Archive.....

[jonas]

Sorry...  Just don't think that Mother Winter would allow an Outsider, or Old One to watch the Gates for Nemfected people.  That's like having a fox keep an eye on the chicken coup.  Also don't think of Rashid is someone who delights in pain, and suffering.

Your limited in your idea of MW, it's based on nothing in the book, she's not from our world either, an she's not exactly cosmically unbound to reshape reality to her will. She IS an Outsider. Your idea on Rashid is also similar to saying Santa would never hurt people cause that's not our perspective of Santa. It's in and of itself moot to the credence of the details themselves.
I mean his formation is not that hard to understand in the cyclic nature of things, take DR and have Harry darkhallow on it while containing the seething mass of monstrousities beneath his own strong will and beliefs. He would basically be Nyarlahotep, the  enlightened one, the rightly guided one... The earthly soul to the spirit of the Outer Gods. His cloak as dark as night itself, blah, blah blah.
Funny thing is if i'm right we get to see this one happen in the past-future and then I gloat maniacally at the limitation of others and know that all this time spent alone in my enlightenment was not for naught.

[groinkick]

Your limited in your idea of MW, it's based on nothing in the book, she's not from our world either

lol...  Well you're making a lot of statements as facts, and not as a theory or guess.  I've had some off the wall idea's, but I post them as such, ideas. 

[jonas]

lol...  Well you're making a lot of statements as facts, and not as a theory or guess.  I've had some off the wall idea's, but I post them as such, ideas.

It's a theory, just like evolution. I'm citing the solution as viable, everything else is evidence already made fact, unless you'd actually try to point out any fallibles in the facts I've presented, in which case your free to do so.

[groinkick]

It's a theory, just like evolution. I'm citing the solution as viable, everything else is evidence already made fact, unless you'd actually try to point out any fallibles in the facts I've presented, in which case your free to do so.

Alright well I think the first argument I'd make is that he's on the Senior Council.  I think that after all this time they would have figured out he was not a mortal wizard.  One of the big reasons for this is only mortal wizard can do certain kinds of magic, or at least that's the rules that have been laid out to us.  I don't think he'd be allowed to be a member if he was not an actual wizard.  No one else like Mab, or the Mothers, or Angels or anyone sits on the Senior Council except mortal wizards.

Nyarlahotep, the  enlightened one, the rightly guided one

"The faceless god", "The messenger of the Outer gods", "The Crawling chaos"....The list goes on.  Here is how the story goes when he was a Pharaoh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1rm9KRBg7g


Mother Winter I guess could be an Outer god, but what indication is there besides her sunny disposition?

[jonas]

Alright well I think the first argument I'd make is that he's on the Senior Council.  I think that after all this time they would have figured out he was not a mortal wizard.  One of the big reasons for this is only mortal wizard can do certain kinds of magic, or at least that's the rules that have been laid out to us.  I don't think he'd be allowed to be a member if he was not an actual wizard.  No one else like Mab, or the Mothers, or Angels or anyone sits on the Senior Council except mortal wizards.

And on the grey council either, but we already have one God/mortal on it, Odin. Wizardy is the required element and a mantle does not unmake a wizard. Odin manages both and GK's the next archetype over from Odin, He's Horus, more or less, in Origin. The Moon being his domain is the biggest indicator I remember on why... but we've previously hashed this out here at one point. I don't see a purely mortal nothing have a domain of their own(which is to say a place that they sync to exactly, Like Odin and Norway) that's gotten to by walking across the surface of the moon... NOW a moon god though....

"The faceless god", "The messenger of the Outer gods", "The Crawling chaos"....The list goes on.  Here is how the story goes when he was a Pharaoh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1rm9KRBg7g


Mother Winter I guess could be an Outer god, but what indication is there besides her sunny disposition?

Besides MS telling her it's not her world, power level. She's a F'n beast in power? Various other reasonings, but most of what I theorize is springboarded off of what I consider other viable theory, Like MW is basically the embodiment of DR. The Traveling Stone next to her cottage is actually the lighthouse entrance, hence it leading to the Outer Gates. Also why it's originally put in as HERS and not theirs, MS just stays there by proxy. She's not Death so much as The End, of all things. Those forgotten become nothing more than an aspect of her Masks.(Lady Night, Nyx, the Darkness, oblivion conceptualized). An those things insider her waiting to get out? It's like the mental battles in GS, except she broke off a portion of herself, gave it leverage, to fight against the things struggling to get out.(your not immune to yourself, after all) If you want to get into the Lore, DR is the reason she's crippled, each hall represents one of her ankles, knee's, hips, shoulders, elbows and hands, respectively.

[groinkick]

And on the grey council either, but we already have one God/mortal on it, Odin.

Sorry, apples and oranges.  The White Council is mortal wizards with rules, laws, and traditions built over thousands of years.  The Grey Council is a covert group that was just thrown together with any allies they can find.

[jonas]

Sorry, apples and oranges.  The White Council is mortal wizards with rules, laws, and traditions built over thousands of years.  The Grey Council is a covert group that was just thrown together with any allies they can find.

You seriously think 13 is randomly going to pop up as the number when 13 wizards are the max to work on one spell? So we'll have 13... but you guys stand back while us seven work this mortal spellframe that you can't work on with us.... and the idea of the WC is kinda laughable to be put that way, they break their own rules, they have no idea why their laws actually exist, they really wouldn't have any clue to someone whose older then them, someone intentionally secretive, being anything but capable of mortal magic... Do you really think Odin is NOT? Because that's the only point that matters there, not if the council is aware or because they have traditions, can he pull off being a mortal wizard? Of course he can, the uncarved block has a mortal wizard in it. Just like Uriel having a human form under the Grace. The Grace being able to be separated so he becomes human shows a differentiation in totality. The mantle currently expressed being able to be changed so Odin can be fae or Aesir or his mortal guise beneath it? It's what GK's appearance is, his mortal formation before death, in some ways similar to Ferro eating a Centurion and ergo able to manifest just that tiny bit of himself. It's his "knight' without separation from person, just identity. Like if MW had her Stick she'd be Baba Yaga with her Mortar and pestle, go anywhere grind and eat anything. an alternative identity still connected to the whole.

[groinkick]

You seriously think 13 is randomly going to pop up as the number when 13 wizards are the max to work on one spell? So we'll have 13... but you guys stand back while us seven work this mortal spellframe that you can't work on with us.... and the idea of the WC is kinda laughable to be put that way, they break their own rules, they have no idea why their laws actually exist, they really wouldn't have any clue to someone whose older then them, someone intentionally secretive, being anything but capable of mortal magic... Do you really think Odin is NOT? Because that's the only point that matters there, not if the council is aware or because they have traditions, can he pull off being a mortal wizard? Of course he can, the uncarved block has a mortal wizard in it. Just like Uriel having a human form under the Grace. The Grace being able to be separated so he becomes human shows a differentiation in totality. The mantle currently expressed being able to be changed so Odin can be fae or Aesir or his mortal guise beneath it? It's what GK's appearance is, his mortal formation before death, in some ways similar to Ferro eating a Centurion and ergo able to manifest just that tiny bit of himself. It's his "knight' without separation from person, just identity. Like if MW had her Stick she'd be Baba Yaga with her Mortar and pestle, go anywhere grind and eat anything. an alternative identity still connected to the whole.

Outsiders are not Mantles

[jonas]

Outsiders are not Mantles

What is MW? What is a mask of identity based on things inside reality that cause fear, or those things that loathsomely cause death? All they have manifest as are 'Mantles' so far. Besides, Mantle is too limited. Grace also can be worn. And take away the subtle structure of the mantle and it's really no different from a possession. Fearbringer was a mantle of fear cause or felt by Molly, When Hwwbh manifest he did the same thing. Some of his aspects are actually found quite easily in Cat Sith,(his mouth, also he's manifesting Naagloshi..) hence him later being able to be the one controlling Sith with the 'look behind you' joke. It was a double ontondra  to his identity. And the second time he's toyed with Harry til Harry 'wins', quite intentionally.

[groinkick]

What is MW?

MW?  Well my opinion is she, like other Sidhe started small, and grew bigger over time, and then obtained many Mantles.  Either that or a very early mortal who obtained power via worship, sacrifice, or obtaining Mantles over eons or all three.  Or a celestial Being like a Dragon.

What is a mask of identity based on things inside reality that cause fear, or those things that loathsomely cause death?

Much of Summer and Winter are weather conditions, and life cycles that happen on Earth manifested into Beings.  Fear, and death are part of life, it doesn't have to mean they are Outsiders

All they have manifest as are 'Mantles' so far. Besides, Mantle is too limited. Grace also can be worn. And take away the subtle structure of the mantle and it's really no different from a possession. Fearbringer was a mantle of fear cause or felt by Molly, When Hwwbh manifest he did the same thing. Some of his aspects are actually found quite easily in Cat Sith,(his mouth, also he's manifesting Naagloshi..) hence him later being able to be the one controlling Sith with the 'look behind you' joke. It was a double ontondra  to his identity. And the second time he's toyed with Harry til Harry 'wins', quite intentionally.

The debate about Mantles has been going on since I've been on the forums.  It's tough to say what is, and is not a Mantle especially when you get into the realm of Angels, Dragons, TWG, and Outsiders.  Mantles as we know them are from within the known universe while the Angels, and Outsiders were supposed to have existed before time itself.  That's the big difference between Outsiders and Beings like Odin.  Jim said the Sidhe were created for a purpose...  Created meaning they are temporary, they haven't always existed while TWG, Angels, Outsiders were around before time. 

[Avernite]

It's a theory, just like evolution. I'm citing the solution as viable, everything else is evidence already made fact, unless you'd actually try to point out any fallibles in the facts I've presented, in which case your free to do so.

A random wild guess that may or may not even fit the books is nothing like a scientific theory, sorry.

Mother Winter and the Gatekeeper are rather clearly in the first line of defence against Outsiders. Now, they may be based on something from Outside crossing over, but much more likely seems that they are instead emergent features of reality; there is a reality and not-reality (Outside) and so they have to be separate. Something, or someone, has to stand on that line and maintain it - Winter and the Gatekeeper, at this time, as the prime champions of reality rather than Outside.

And I don't think Nyarlathotep would like to be tied down at the Outer Gates so much.