WAG.... Murphy has moved on

[Mr. Death]

Odin also implied Harry could get free of the mantle.

Does that mean he's also closed minded and deluded and doing Harry harm?

[Kindler]

Odin also implied Harry could get free of the mantle.

Does that mean he's also closed minded and deluded and doing Harry harm?

The amount of effort Jim has put into foreshadowing Harry dropping the Mantle at some point is too great to ignore. There are a few things that might convince Harry to hang onto it longer than he has to—namely, Mab might view it as reneging on his deal and un-fix his spine, he might see the loss of power as too dangerous depending on his current enemy situation (pretty much everyone), and Harry has already stated that it might be better if he has the Mantle, because someone with less experience resisting temptation could easily become another Lloyd. Regardless, I think Harry will pull a Trickster and figure some way out that satisfies Mab and doesn't endanger his family and friends. (Or Winter will be destroyed. Whichever comes first.)

That is what has worried me and increasing since she left the police force, one reason why I am not much of a fan anymore.This is what I mean about not asking any questions or listening to what Harry has to say.  I think she does more harm than good with the attitude that he could get out of the gig if he really wanted to.

My counter to this is that Murphy is the only one who's consistently pushing Harry to remain himself rather than submit to his situation. She wants his situation to be better, because Harry really doesn't like being the Winter Knight. Contrast that with Michael, who later in Skin Game tells Harry not to worry, because he's strong and tough and can stay himself anyway. While it's nice to hear, that's the kind of thing that gets someone stuck in the same place. It's sacrificing the future for the present.

I keep reading suggestions about possible power ups and mantles for Murphy, but to my mind if this were to happen it would blow a lot of why many of her fans claim they lover her.   That being she is the mortal vanilla human element in Harry's life that keeps him grounded... But give her a power up or a mantle, she can no longer come from that perspective.

I agree and I disagree; I don't want her to pick up any power-ups, but I don't think it would make her forget what it is to be human, or powerless.

[raidem]

Odin also implied Harry could get free of the mantle.

See, this is where I take more meaning from Vadderung's comments.  I believe he was also implying that Harry could free Mab from her mantle.  This would go with my theory that Harry will try to free Murphy from the Mab mantle at some point.  Or it can mean that Molly could be freed from her mantle. Or it can mean, like you said, that Harry can be free of it.  Overall though, I think the meaning between Vadderung and Mother Summer's comment that all the mantle holders have the possibility to remain themself and free themself from the mantle is more inclusive than specific to one individual.  So, we need to keep in mind that Mab's individual identity is in play and someone may want to save her.  If not Harry, then maybe Merlin's lover or something like that.  Someone may want to preserve/rescue Mab's soul from the Fae Queen heirarchy.

It may be that Mab is/will be nemfected and the only way to save Mab is to separate her from the mantle so the mantle can get free from the nemfected part.

[Mira]

My counter to this is that Murphy is the only one who's consistently pushing Harry to remain himself rather than submit to his situation. She wants his situation to be better, because Harry really doesn't like being the Winter Knight. Contrast that with Michael, who later in Skin Game tells Harry not to worry, because he's strong and tough and can stay himself anyway. While it's nice to hear, that's the kind of thing that gets someone stuck in the same place. It's sacrificing the future for the present.

Michael gave Harry confidence, Murphy's message didn't..  Sadly Harry has to think in the present, because if he doesn't and goes into battle against his powerful foes he won't survive...

I agree and I disagree; I don't want her to pick up any power-ups, but I don't think it would make her forget what it is to be human, or powerless.

No?  Look what the Winter knight mantle almost did to Harry and he has been dealing with awesome power all of his life.  Remember it was said that Slate wasn't always what he turned into after he became the Winter Knight.  He couldn't deal with the power and temptations of it.  Murphy is only human, she as susceptible as anyone else to temptation..  She showed her weakness when she thought she could handle a Holy Sword after stating all the reasons why she shouldn't..   

[Arjan]

Michael gave Harry confidence, Murphy's message didn't..  Sadly Harry has to think in the present, because if he doesn't and goes into battle against his powerful foes he won't survive...
No?  Look what the Winter knight mantle almost did to Harry and he has been dealing with awesome power all of his life.  Remember it was said that Slate wasn't always what he turned into after he became the Winter Knight.  He couldn't deal with the power and temptations of it.  Murphy is only human, she as susceptible as anyone else to temptation..  She showed her weakness when she thought she could handle a Holy Sword after stating all the reasons why she shouldn't..

Murphy showed her love. It is clear she tried it anyway because that was the only way she saw to save Harry. And she did save Harry's life. It is still not clear what else she could have done at that moment, I have heard of no alternative action that could have realistically saved Harry's life at that moment and people have tried to come up with one.

At the end the breaking of the sword was not that important because the sword might have been broken but the faith was not. Karen and Harry's faith in each other only became stronger.

[peregrine]

She showed her weakness when she thought she could handle a Holy Sword after stating all the reasons why she shouldn't..

So what you're saying is that Murphy was right and Harry was wrong when she disagreed with him about whether or not to bring the Sword on the mission.

Murphy showed her love. It is clear she tried it anyway because that was the only way she saw to save Harry. And she did save Harry's life. It is still not clear what else she could have done at that moment, I have heard of no alternative action that could have realistically saved Harry's life at that moment and people have tried to come up with one.

Yes, but you see, if we take Nic's statement at face value that he was just pretending in order to break a sword, then she could have just done nothing and Harry would be fine.

I mean, sure, we'd then have to ignore Nic's immediate follow up statement that compares what he did to Harry's attempt to run interference for Butters so he could escape and thus violate his duty to aid Nic, and also Harry's explicit recognition of how he could justify a legitimate attempt to kill Harry.  But why would Nic lie about something like that?

[Arjan]

So what you're saying is that Murphy was right and Harry was wrong when she disagreed with him about whether or not to bring the Sword on the mission.Yes, but you see, if we take Nic's statement at face value that he was just pretending in order to break a sword, then she could have just done nothing and Harry would be fine.

I mean, sure, we'd then have to ignore Nic's immediate follow up statement that compares what he did to Harry's attempt to run interference for Butters so he could escape and thus violate his duty to aid Nic, and also Harry's explicit recognition of how he could justify a legitimate attempt to kill Harry.  But why would Nic lie about something like that?

For the psychological damage it does. Nicodemus us is full of shit so whatever he says first has a purpose and truth is only a bonus, even if it is true it was probably just a half truth anyway.

Nicodemus knows Karen feels guilt about breaking the sword so he would say everything to make it worse.

Ignoring Nicodemus statements especially everything that comes without prove and especially his Stated intentions should be your default, there is always a good reason for him to lie because there is always a reason for what he says.

[peregrine]

Yeah, but he can also do damage by rubbing in how he was able to get away with almost murdering Harry by using the exact same logic Harry did.

Basically, to presume that Nic was not going to have Harry killed requires us to believe him when he was talking about how it was all a lie, and then ignore the parts that come immediately afterwards, including Harry admitting that he's got an excuse for trying to have Harry killed.

Not that it stops people.

[Arjan]

Yeah, but he can also do damage by rubbing in how he was able to get away with almost murdering Harry by using the exact same logic Harry did.

Basically, to presume that Nic was not going to have Harry killed requires us to believe him when he was talking about how it was all a lie, and then ignore the parts that come immediately afterwards, including Harry admitting that he's got an excuse for trying to have Harry killed.

Not that it stops people.

Well any theory based on believing what Nicodemus says is just plain silly

(click to show/hide)

It points to the obvious: all Murphy bashing is part of Nicodemus agenda. the Murphy bashers are denarians or denarian tools misled by the lies of the fallen. You can of course ignore them but that means you are ignoring evil in your mids.   As real knights we need to expose the lies of the fallen and try to save their victims how futile that might seem, it is good work. It is about saving souls.

[huangjimmy108]

Well any theory based on believing what Nicodemus says is just plain silly

(click to show/hide)

It points to the obvious: all Murphy bashing is part of Nicodemus agenda. the Murphy bashers are denarians or denarian tools misled by the lies of the fallen. You can of course ignore them but that means you are ignoring evil in your mids.   As real knights we need to expose the lies of the fallen and try to save their victims how futile that might seem, it is good work. It is about saving souls.

Silly indeed.

On the one hand we have Nicodemous's take on things, and on the other hand we have Harry's view on the matter. It is clear that Harry believes that his life, Butter's life and Murphy's life are in real danger during the incident.

Believing in Nicodemous is not only silly. It also makes Harry looks very stupid, and since Murphy learns most of her stuff about the supernatural world from Harry, I can't really blame Murphy for the mistake even in the impossible event that Nicodemous speaks the truth. If even Harry misread the situation so badly, Murphy making the mistake is only to be expected and since Harry is the one who invited her to be his partner in this game to begin with, Harry again being portrayed as a true idiot.

The idea that Harry's life is not really in danger, makes "team good" look so incompetent the entire Dresden files series become so much of a joke. that is how much damage the idea cause to the overall value of the story.

The idea is not worth the damage.

[Mira]

Silly indeed.

On the one hand we have Nicodemous's take on things, and on the other hand we have Harry's view on the matter. It is clear that Harry believes that his life, Butter's life and Murphy's life are in real danger during the incident.

Believing in Nicodemous is not only silly. It also makes Harry looks very stupid, and since Murphy learns most of her stuff about the supernatural world from Harry, I can't really blame Murphy for the mistake even in the impossible event that Nicodemous speaks the truth. If even Harry misread the situation so badly, Murphy making the mistake is only to be expected and since Harry is the one who invited her to be his partner in this game to begin with, Harry again being portrayed as a true idiot.

The idea that Harry's life is not really in danger, makes "team good" look so incompetent the entire Dresden files series become so much of a joke. that is how much damage the idea cause to the overall value of the story.

The idea is not worth the damage.

All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword...  Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis...  Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules.  That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption.   She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk  for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that...  Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...

[Avernite]

All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword...  Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis...  Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules.  That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption.   She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk  for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice, Nic had nothing to do with that...  Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...

The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.

And as Uriel says in Changes: whatever you do, do it for love. Murphy did exactly what Uriel recommended, and it worked out (as Uriel suggested), if different than anyone imagined.

[Mr. Death]

Well yeah. The idea was never to convince Murphy, or anyone else for that matter, that he was really repentant. If anything, the goal was to do the opposite. He made himself a "defenseless," and "surrendered" captive so that she couldn't kill him with the Sword, then made it blatantly obvious that it was all bullshit and used Dresden to make her really really want to kill him with the Sword, then pushed it till something gave.

[Mira]

The whole case is silly; in no sensible way was Nicodemus actually surrendering to Murphy. He was very clearly playing her, and I think it was a bit of an author's cop-out to break the sword for it.

And as Uriel says in Changes: whatever you do, do it for love. Murphy did exactly what Uriel recommended, and it worked out (as Uriel suggested), if different than anyone imagined.

   I think the point is, yes, Nic was playing her, he was well aware that she had the Sword with her.  She didn't know that
except under special conditions, Andriel sees and hears everything, so hiding the Sword only kept it from Harry, not Nic.  She couldn't see that she was being played, Harry tried to warn her even as his skull seemingly was about to be crushed.  So Nic knowing she had the Sword with her and how she felt about it, he set her up.   He did gamble a bit, his gamble was that she'd hold to her belief that he deserved death instead of a chance at redemption... So she raised the Sword, she judged, "damn you," she struck, breaking the rules and the Sword... Now, if she had called his bluff and accepted his surrender, the coin, and the noose, he would have been screwed like Cassius was... Or if he took them back and continued to fight, then she would have been free to lop off his head..

And yes, Murphy was forgiven for her screw up because she did for love... However that didn't make her actions right... I believe what Uriel told Harry in Changes was;  page 229 hard back

Uriel said.  "Whatever you do, do it for love.  If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return."

Uriel was telling Harry that becoming Winter Knight if he did for the love of his daughter, his actions would not take him so far off the path, that he could never be redeemed.   Yes, love motivated Murphy, yes, it worked out with the Sword... However it remains to be seen whether or not she can make it back to the path to the light.  Same goes for Harry as far as that goes.   Time will tell.

Well yeah. The idea was never to convince Murphy, or anyone else for that matter, that he was really repentant. If anything, the goal was to do the opposite. He made himself a "defenseless," and "surrendered" captive so that she couldn't kill him with the Sword, then made it blatantly obvious that it was all bullshit and used Dresden to make her really really want to kill him with the Sword, then pushed it till something gave.

Whether or not he was repentant when he surrendered makes no difference..  He surrendered, thus has to be give a second chance at life.. Whether he works at his own redemption or not with what remains of his life is up to him... This is what Michael explained to Harry when he was outraged that he and Sanya would allow Cassius to go free after he surrendered.   It isn't for the Knight to judge,  yes, if the bastard doesn't surrender, lop off his head, but if he does, he has to be given that chance at life to make amends if he so chooses..

[Arjan]

All of this ignores the fact that even before Murphy left her house she lectured Harry as to why she shouldn't use a Holy Sword...  Yes, it worked for C.I. but she didn't like being a sock puppet for an archangel, so she didn't want to be a Knight on a regular basis...  Most importantly she didn't believe in the rules that are set down for the Knights, i.e. she doesn't believe in the redemption clause of the rules.  That is, if the Denarian surrendered and willingly gave up the coin he or she would be let go to seek their own redemption.   She didn't believe that any of them deserved such a chance, they only deserved execution, thud her carrying a Sword thus put it at risk  for being broken... Then she ignored her own advice,

Because she had no other realistic option to save those she loved. She had to try. And if I had to choose between saving my wife or saving that sword I would have broken that sword myself if need be, it is just a tool after all.

Nic had nothing to do with that...  Yes, he played her beautifully and played off her emotions to achieve his goal of getting the Sword broken... It wouldn't have happened if she had left the Sword at home and I don't know, just shot him in the head to save Harry...

Would not have worked. He must be protected against bullets. Murphy was in a difficult situation not because she distrusted Harry or was lecturing him or whatever but because Harry and Murphy were trying to save Waldo from the consequences of his own actions.

Again the opinions of Harry and Murphy, both highly respected by a former knight of the cross and two current ones, are worth less than the word of a known liar and oathbreaker.  Her genuine love and concern are belittled. A tool is valued higher than human life.  Basically Nicodemus has a herald on this forum.

It is all about love. Not just the love between Harry and Murphy but the love between all Harry's friends. Ghost story was a dark time but a lot of that love is back now and we should celebrate that, not bashing it.

Bashing love is the work of the fallen, it is the fallen in the coin speaking. Give up that coin. Really your soul is worth more than everything.