Author Topic: WAG.... Murphy has moved on  (Read 76605 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2018, 05:30:02 AM »
  Apples to oranges,  a happy ending for a guy who already had a very happy family life made happier by him no longer going into danger and putting his life on the line...  Michael was very happy with that as well as his family...  Sorry, but I doubt that Murphy would see that as a happy ending for herself...
It's much happier for her character to have her die.

Because we want to be nice to her.

Offline groinkick

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2018, 05:39:09 AM »
It's much happier for her character to have her die.

Because we want to be nice to her.


Little Maggie agrees

Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline peregrine

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2018, 05:42:29 AM »
You say that, but she's next on the chopping block according to some people.

I mean, imagine what sort of psychological trauma she's gone through!  It's really just a mercy killing.

Offline forumghost

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2018, 05:53:42 AM »
Nah, Maggie Jnr is about as safe as anyone gets really, because her death would destroy Harry entirely thanks to the bizarre and unbelievable attachment to her that he developed instantly upon hearings she existed, despite not interacting with her till two books later.

Jim wants Harry to be hurting, but he needs him together enough to mostly function, so Maggie cant die, even if some of us wish she would because she's a bad plot device character.

Offline groinkick

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2018, 05:54:37 AM »
You say that, but she's next on the chopping block according to some people.

I mean, imagine what sort of psychological trauma she's gone through!  It's really just a mercy killing.




Nah, Maggie Jnr is about as safe as anyone gets really, because her death would destroy Harry entirely thanks to the bizarre and unbelievable attachment to her that he developed instantly upon hearings she existed, despite not interacting with her till two books later.

Jim wants Harry to be hurting, but he needs him together enough to mostly function, so Maggie cant die, even if some of us wish she would because she's a bad plot device character.

Not only that but he's starting a spin off series lol.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mira

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2018, 11:31:04 AM »
On the television show Supernatural the character Dean Winchester, a hunter said "I know how my story ends.  At the edge of a blade or the end of a gun".  Murphy is an intelligent woman.  She has to see how things are getting more dangerous, and that her chances of survival get lower the longer she fights.  Maybe she is like Dean and is fine with it.  On the other hand maybe she'd like to pass the torch so to speak so she can live some kind of peaceful life outside of combat.

I'm not saying her story ends and she isn't involved.  She could work alongside Marcone, with the Paranet, or something like that.  I'm talking about a life that isn't about fighting on the front lines like Harry, and more of fighting more like Marcone fights, less exposed in most situations.

  I understand what you are saying, and you are right, she could do any of that.  What I am saying given her personality
that will be a very difficult adjustment for her.   She may be forced into such a role, but no matter how meaningful it is, she will never be truly happy in it.   
Quote


It's much happier for her character to have her die.

Because we want to be nice to her.

It could be, and oddly it may turn out to be the happiest for her fans as well.   

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2018, 11:36:47 AM »
  I understand what you are saying, and you are right, she could do any of that.  What I am saying given her personality
that will be a very difficult adjustment for her.   She may be forced into such a role, but no matter how meaningful it is, she will never be truly happy in it.
Hey, here's a thing about people: They grow up and adjust to new situations. Fact of life. Murphy's done it before, and being that she's a mature adult, I have every confidence in it happening again.

She's not such a petulant child that she's going to whine and cry about not being a front line fighter anymore and be unable to change.

I think people need to stop treating Murphy as if she's some one-note blood knight who's going to be suicidal over the inability to punch things, and start treating her like a person who can grow and change -- you know, like literally every other human in the series.

As to the "keep up" stuff: This is Dresden. Not Dragonball Z. You don't become irrelevant just because you can't hit things the hardest.
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Offline WereElephant

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2018, 02:09:45 PM »
I’ve always been a Murphden shipper, but I have always suspected (especially now since they have hooked up with so many books left) that Harry is “destined” to end up with Elaine. Which does not bode well for Murphy’s continued health.

I can see what you mean about Elaine, but my impression is her path post-Justin has diverged enough from Harry's that it isn't feasible for them to join up. Harry's path is well set - defender of Chicago from sundry nasties, Sidhe pacts not withstanding. We don't know a whole lot about Elaine's doings other than the appearances in Summer Knight/White Night and the mentions of collaboration on the Paranet, but I get the impression she's taking on a parallel role to Harry out west. Them joining together would pull one of them away from those established paths.

Oh, Murphy's into Harry. And vice versa. She'll be benched for the duration of her recovery, and her lapse in judgment with the Sword will be a psychological weight to carry, but after so long denying herself the chance with Harry, she's finally gotten the point of saying "Screw it, I want this." I fully expect they'll continue to be an item in Peace Talks.

Consequentially, I also fully expect her to snuff it at some point. Not because she "can't keep up". She and Marcone have proven that vanilla mortals can run the race even better than some of their supernatural cohorts. Because her story in relation to Harry's seems ultimately tragic. She'll age and die, while Harry has the potential (dumb mistakes not withstanding) to continue on for centuries. They'll hook up, and finally know a little reprieve, but then the Malevolence of Butcher will be roused against them, seeing the opportunity to extract further anguish from the wizard, and she will know surcease.

Honestly, I'm thinking post Murphy Harry will eventually realize that Molly doesn't wear training bras anymore, he'll stop repeating that specific phrase about training bras, and once he sheds the mantle of Winter Knight, and through one way or another, Molly somehow unbecomes Sidhe, they'll hook up. She's a practitioner, so the aging thing won't be an issue like with Murphy. Unlike Elaine, Molly's path has been inextricably linked with Harry's from childhood. From being influenced by him hanging out with her dad, to becoming his apprentice, to taking over his role during the Ghost Story hiatus of wizardly presence, to basically becoming another version of Harry in Cold Days prior to the Demonreach Faerie Lady Two-Step, to now effectively being one of his bosses. They're stuck together, one way or another.

Elaine fulfills the "old flame" archetype perfectly. She's out of the picture. Murphy is a romantically sympathetic ally, and a hardy one at that, but at heart, she's a fighter. She'll die that way, while Harry will go on. Molly was not, and currently is not a viable option, but her arc is rife with potential. Proven Guilty through Changes showed a potentially tragic character, but she survived the purgatory of Ghost Story and veritably thrived in Cold Days. Molly isn't a hardy fighter destined to go out in a blaze of glory. She's now a full wizard, and wizards have a habit of saying "Screw you, destiny, I'm rewriting you."

Offline peregrine

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2018, 03:03:52 PM »
  I understand what you are saying, and you are right, she could do any of that.  What I am saying given her personality
that will be a very difficult adjustment for her.   She may be forced into such a role, but no matter how meaningful it is, she will never be truly happy in it.   
It could be, and oddly it may turn out to be the happiest for her fans as well.
Because if there's one thing fans of a character like, it's when they die.

Wait, no.  What's the other term for someone who wants to see a character die every single time they bring them up?  Not fan.  Something else.

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2018, 03:09:02 PM »
These threads really haven't changed much.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

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Offline Talby16

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2018, 04:01:03 PM »
I can see what you mean about Elaine, but my impression is her path post-Justin has diverged enough from Harry's that it isn't feasible for them to join up. Harry's path is well set - defender of Chicago from sundry nasties, Sidhe pacts not withstanding. We don't know a whole lot about Elaine's doings other than the appearances in Summer Knight/White Night and the mentions of collaboration on the Paranet, but I get the impression she's taking on a parallel role to Harry out west. Them joining together would pull one of them away from those established paths.

Oh, Murphy's into Harry. And vice versa. She'll be benched for the duration of her recovery, and her lapse in judgment with the Sword will be a psychological weight to carry, but after so long denying herself the chance with Harry, she's finally gotten the point of saying "Screw it, I want this." I fully expect they'll continue to be an item in Peace Talks.

Consequentially, I also fully expect her to snuff it at some point. Not because she "can't keep up". She and Marcone have proven that vanilla mortals can run the race even better than some of their supernatural cohorts. Because her story in relation to Harry's seems ultimately tragic. She'll age and die, while Harry has the potential (dumb mistakes not withstanding) to continue on for centuries. They'll hook up, and finally know a little reprieve, but then the Malevolence of Butcher will be roused against them, seeing the opportunity to extract further anguish from the wizard, and she will know surcease.

Honestly, I'm thinking post Murphy Harry will eventually realize that Molly doesn't wear training bras anymore, he'll stop repeating that specific phrase about training bras, and once he sheds the mantle of Winter Knight, and through one way or another, Molly somehow unbecomes Sidhe, they'll hook up. She's a practitioner, so the aging thing won't be an issue like with Murphy. Unlike Elaine, Molly's path has been inextricably linked with Harry's from childhood. From being influenced by him hanging out with her dad, to becoming his apprentice, to taking over his role during the Ghost Story hiatus of wizardly presence, to basically becoming another version of Harry in Cold Days prior to the Demonreach Faerie Lady Two-Step, to now effectively being one of his bosses. They're stuck together, one way or another.

Elaine fulfills the "old flame" archetype perfectly. She's out of the picture. Murphy is a romantically sympathetic ally, and a hardy one at that, but at heart, she's a fighter. She'll die that way, while Harry will go on. Molly was not, and currently is not a viable option, but her arc is rife with potential. Proven Guilty through Changes showed a potentially tragic character, but she survived the purgatory of Ghost Story and veritably thrived in Cold Days. Molly isn't a hardy fighter destined to go out in a blaze of glory. She's now a full wizard, and wizards have a habit of saying "Screw you, destiny, I'm rewriting you."

Nice summary. I agree with Murphy going out in a fight. I also think that Molly is a more likely partner than Elaine.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2018, 04:20:13 PM »
I don't think that kind of death suits Murphy.

If anything, it suits Harry. He's the one who's always a hair's breadth from a spectacular and explosive end, and if it comes to some kind of heroic sacrifice situation, he's going to run headlong into it so fast he'd give Wally West whiplash.

Jim Butcher isn't George Martin (thank the gods). I think you guys are all seriously overplaying the "he likes to make Harry suffer" angle. He's already gone through the tragically-lost-lover plot.

Susan was Harry's Gwen Stacy. Murphy is his Mary Jane Watson.

And his mother figure's already dead and Butcher doesn't (appear to) have Joe Quesada's mommy issues, so I foresee no badly-plotted deals with the devil to erase the relationship.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 04:24:00 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Mira

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2018, 04:23:51 PM »
Quote
Because if there's one thing fans of a character like, it's when they die.

Wait, no.  What's the other term for someone who wants to see a character die every single time they bring them up?  Not fan.  Something else.


   No,  that isn't what I am saying..   Murphy will not be the same Murphy anymore, a lot has flowed across her bridge the last few years..  She hasn't been the same for quite some time since she left the police force, my like for the character has gone down hill since then.   Granted she still has fans, some diehard fans, but even they may not like the next form Murphy takes..  There are fans who like Harry a lot less since Changes..  Some who have problems over all with the series since Changes..  So you might want to keep Murphy around, but you might not like what you are reading, that is all I am saying.

Offline WereElephant

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2018, 04:33:28 PM »
I don't think that kind of death suits Murphy.

Fair. It is only my opinion. What do you see in store for her, either for the remainder of the series, or her eventual death beyond?

Quote
If anything, it suits Harry. He's the one who's always a hair's breadth from a spectacular and explosive end, and if it comes to some kind of heroic sacrifice situation, he's going to run headlong into it so fast he'd give Wally West whiplash.

Agreed, it would suit Harry. But to allow disbelief for a moment, I'm assuming Harry won't die again until the BAT, if we see him die again this series.

Quote
I think you guys are all seriously overplaying the "he likes to make Harry suffer" angle.

Here, I disagree with you. This WoJ: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-and-stuff-i-didnt-put-into-other-categories/ contains a quote under Mystery Galaxy Signing Q&A. It reads "I don’t know the answers to questions like that, but I enjoy the hell out of torturing Dresden with them!  That’s really kind of the point of what I do." Also, although I can't find a source for it right now, I remember a WoJ that went something like "I'm in the business of torturing Harry Dresden. And Business is booming!"

Quote
Susan was Harry's Gwen Stacy. Murphy is his Mary Jane Watson.

It might well turn out that way, but according to Mr. Butcher, he hasn't planned out Harry's love life. He wanted that to develop organically. Source: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-friends/, from 2009 Kansas City Q&A. In the absence of a declared plan for the eventual lasting relationship (if any), I don't think we can definitively cast anyone as Mary Jane. My money is still on Molly, but it's just a guess.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: WAG.... Murphy has moved on
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2018, 04:51:51 PM »
Fair. It is only my opinion. What do you see in store for her, either for the remainder of the series, or her eventual death beyond?
I could see her ending up in a role somewhere between where she was and where Charity is. I don't see her as a stay-at-home type, but even before the injury, she knew well enough that any fight she was in was uphill. With the injury, she's at a greater disadvantage, and she knows that. So I see her being Harry's support (like she always has been), less likely to dive in and get rough, but still able to if she had to.

One thing we can probably all agree with is that Jim loves the "seemingly helpless person turns out to be really dangerous" trope. It pops up frequently, and has even popped up with Murphy herself a few times. So what I'm expecting is some uppity faerie to start in on her, only to find out that Murphy's walking cane just so happens to be made out of stainless steel when she breaks his nose with it.

That's the kind of future I see for Murphy -- more support-ish, but still capable.

Quote
Agreed, it would suit Harry. But to allow disbelief for a moment, I'm assuming Harry won't die again until the BAT, if we see him die again this series.
I place Murphy in a similar role. She might be the only character besides Harry to have appeared in every single book, and is very nearly as central a character as he is.

Quote
Here, I disagree with you. This WoJ: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-and-stuff-i-didnt-put-into-other-categories/ contains a quote under Mystery Galaxy Signing Q&A. It reads "I don’t know the answers to questions like that, but I enjoy the hell out of torturing Dresden with them!  That’s really kind of the point of what I do." Also, although I can't find a source for it right now, I remember a WoJ that went something like "I'm in the business of torturing Harry Dresden. And Business is booming!"
Torturing Harry is what Jim Butcher does, not why he does. He might enjoy it, but I don't get sense that's what directs the plotline.

Quote
It might well turn out that way, but according to Mr. Butcher, he hasn't planned out Harry's love life. He wanted that to develop organically. Source: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-harrys-friends/, from 2009 Kansas City Q&A. In the absence of a declared plan for the eventual lasting relationship (if any), I don't think we can definitively cast anyone as Mary Jane. My money is still on Molly, but it's just a guess.
Right. Not planned out.

Meaning, for example, that arguments that Murphy has to go to make room for Molly are, by that logic, hogwash.

That said, while he didn't plan it out from the start, I find it hard to believe he isn't thinking about the status as he plots upcoming books.

And I didn't mean so much that he'd planned Murphy to be Harry's MJ (Marvel certainly hadn't planned Parker's arc that way to start with) so much as she occupies the same kind of narrative space. Gwen/Susan were Harry's first in-story love, and one who died in circumstances that Peter/Harry hold themselves responsible for. MJ/Murphy are second-loves, who might have been around before Gwen/Susan, but who came into his romantic life later, after proving themselves trustworthy, reliable companions.

I just call it like I see it.
Compels solve everything!

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