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Author Topic: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag  (Read 6327 times)

Offline groinkick

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Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« on: May 30, 2018, 04:35:58 AM »
Just a thought but maybe the deaths of Ivy's mother, Murphy, Maggie and Dresden could all be connected.  That is if they were part of the Venatori. 
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline WereElephant

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2018, 01:06:34 PM »
Quote from: groinkick on May 30, 2018, 04:35:58 AM
Just a thought but maybe the deaths of Ivy's mother, Murphy, Maggie and Dresden could all be connected.  That is if they were part of the Venatori.

By Dresden, do you mean Harry's Boathouse Experience (which I now think is a great name for a ride), or Malcolm Dresden?
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2018, 05:45:17 PM »
Quote from: WereElephant on May 30, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
By Dresden, do you mean Harry's Boathouse Experience (which I now think is a great name for a ride), or Malcolm Dresden?

Malcolm
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline WereElephant

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2018, 06:31:39 PM »
Colin Murphy and Malcolm Dresden, probably not. Malcolm could have stumbled onto something that led to his death, but his job was plenty active enough for other things to cause his death. And truthfully, I hope Malcolm stays a completely mundane magician. Not everyone has to be in on the conspiracies.

Maggie Le Fay and Ivy's mother, on the other hand, could very well be. The Archive's connection to the Venatori and Maggie's planning of Harry's birth are likely different leaves of the same plant: Team Universe, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Mordite.

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Offline Foxed

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2018, 08:33:04 PM »
The Venatori are deliberately at the margins because Harry finding out would blow the series up.

So I don't think they're central in Harry's backstory.
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2018, 04:13:40 AM »
Quote from: Foxed on May 30, 2018, 08:33:04 PM
The Venatori are deliberately at the margins because Harry finding out would blow the series up.

So I don't think they're central in Harry's backstory.

Harry is one of the only friends the Archive has, and his brother is part of the Venatori.  So he's already very very close.  I don't think Harry will find out because Jim said it would be very bad because wizards live a long time, and like to record information (maybe by the BAT?).  That being said it still could be part of his backstory.
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Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline WereElephant

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2018, 12:54:05 PM »
Quote from: groinkick on May 31, 2018, 04:13:40 AM
Harry is one of the only friends the Archive has, and his brother is part of the Venatori.  So he's already very very close.  I don't think Harry will find out because Jim said it would be very bad because wizards live a long time, and like to record information (maybe by the BAT?).  That being said it still could be part of his backstory.

Absolutely, especially if Thomas is actively making sure he doesn't find out.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2018, 02:25:45 PM »
Quote from: groinkick on May 31, 2018, 04:13:40 AM
Jim said it would be very bad because wizards live a long time, and like to record information (maybe by the BAT?).

By that logic, shouldn't White Court Vampires—who speak freaking Etruscan, are functionally immortal, and love to hold on to information for blackmail purposes—be just as poor candidates?

As to the OP question, I think there might be something there. There's a lot that we don't know about Maggie. It's possible that Malcolm found out some things, but I have my doubts about him being a Venatorum. (Singular should be Venatorum, as it's just Latin for "hunter," and I presume it's genderless, but I have trouble remembering the ludicrous number of different declensions in Latin as I get older). In my opinion, Malcolm got roped into things by Maggie, and I think she'd pull the classic Wizard routine and withhold a lot of information to protect him (which never works, and it's why distrusting wizards is such a popular trope).

Funny that Harry never thought to ask Ivy about his mom; he was almost willing to trade what amounted to his soul for information from Chauncey, but won't ask the creepy little girl who knows everything. Maybe it'll occur to Harry to do so in Peace Talks.
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Offline WereElephant

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2018, 02:39:16 PM »
Quote from: Kindler on May 31, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
Funny that Harry never thought to ask Ivy about his mom; he was almost willing to trade what amounted to his soul for information from Chauncey, but won't ask the creepy little girl who knows everything. Maybe it'll occur to Harry to do so in Peace Talks.

Think she'd answer him? After the end of Changes, I imagine she'll have mixed feelings toward seeing him again, especially if she knows he planned that hit.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2018, 02:44:28 PM »
Quote from: WereElephant on May 31, 2018, 02:39:16 PM
Think she'd answer him? After the end of Changes, I imagine she'll have mixed feelings toward seeing him again, especially if she knows he planned that hit.

I doubt she knows. Kincaid knows how to hide things from Ivy.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2018, 07:56:59 PM »
Quote from: Kindler on May 31, 2018, 02:44:28 PM
I doubt she knows. Kincaid knows how to hide things from Ivy.
While I agree that if anyone knew how it would be him, I dont think he knows how. He's not actually all that clued in on the Archive, not being aware of or involved in the Oblivion War and all. 
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2018, 01:18:22 PM »
Quote from: Quantus on May 31, 2018, 07:56:59 PM
While I agree that if anyone knew how it would be him, I dont think he knows how. He's not actually all that clued in on the Archive, not being aware of or involved in the Oblivion War and all.

He doesn't need to know about the Oblivion War to realize that he shouldn't write anything down about it, or get on a plane (tickets, even digital ones, are printed, after all). He knew about Harry's trick to get a note to Ivy; hell, it's how Harry contacted Ivy in Changes, and Kincaid's the one who calls Harry. The "Tell Ivy that if she won't help me I'm going to pick up the blue notebook and go through my list of names" conversation.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2018, 02:05:54 PM »
Quote from: Kindler on May 31, 2018, 02:25:45 PM
By that logic, shouldn't White Court Vampires—who speak freaking Etruscan, are functionally immortal, and love to hold on to information for blackmail purposes—be just as poor candidates?

Whampire venators are generally not a problem for screwing up the effort to make mortals forget the Oblivion enemies because they're not actually quite people. That said, Thomas personally being involved might actually be a problem since, as Mab put it, being in love makes him "mortal enough" for some purposes.

However, I'm not sure how well the venator agenda to keep wizards in the dark is actually working either, given that Carlos said being told about the Old Ones like the Sleeper is the last step of a formally trained apprentice's training.
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Offline SerScot

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2018, 09:47:27 PM »
Quote from: groinkick on May 30, 2018, 04:35:58 AM
Just a thought but maybe the deaths of Ivy's mother, Murphy, Maggie and Dresden could all be connected.  That is if they were part of the Venatori.

No.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy, Dresden, Maggie were Venatori? wag
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2018, 07:53:51 PM »
Quote from: Snark Knight on June 01, 2018, 02:05:54 PM
Whampire venators are generally not a problem for screwing up the effort to make mortals forget the Oblivion enemies because they're not actually quite people. That said, Thomas personally being involved might actually be a problem since, as Mab put it, being in love makes him "mortal enough" for some purposes.

My point was that they hold onto information, and obsessively hoard it for future purposes. I know that their knowledge may not have the same effect as true mortals, but honestly, having the espionage-obsessed ageless incubi/succubi be involved in removing information from the world seems... ill-advised.
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