Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[groinkick]

Oh, Im confident at least some of them are fighting for A Greater Good.  Whether everyone will agree with either the "Greater" or the "Good" part of that, who knows.  At the very least we do know of one (Kumori) that is doing it for idealistic reasons rather than selfish ones.  Hell, I dont think he's BC but Id be willing to describe Nic that way.


My actual prediction is that the BAT will be a big, ugly exploration of the Grey of Magic and Morality, lots of hard choices, hard Sacrifices, and Good Intentions taking things Southward.  And the whole time we'll be seeing Elaine, off on her own, doing things we dont understand and that might seem downright Villainous if viewed with a bit of circumstantial Suspicion (which is the default for at least half the fan-base when if comes to Elaine).  Everything will point to her being a direct Counterpart to Harry, Summer to his Winter, the Other Starborn, etc etc.  At the end it will come down to Trusting Elaine, despite all his allies telling him not to. Jim said once that it will end in such a way where it hinges on Harry being the guy at the end making the Choice (dont quote me on phrasing) such that anyone else in his position would go the wrong way with it, that Being Who and What harry is at that moment is what would make the difference.  In light of that sentiment: I think it will come down to Trust and respecting Free Will: and the most difficult way to do that is often just having to Stand Aside and trust Somebody Else's plan.

When I said "fighting for the greater good", I meant they actually are.  That most people would recognize it.  I'm sure that some on the Bcouncil believe they are fighting for the greater good, but most people would disagree.  I mean look at Outsiders.  Anything you view as evil, they are.  Pain, suffering, torment, cruelty...  That defines them.  No grey there...  Black, and white.  No middle ground.  I see the Black Council as Jim's version of the Sith.  I see Dresden as, and the grey Council as those trying to defeat the Sith.

[Quantus]

When I said "fighting for the greater good", I meant they actually are.  That most people would recognize it.  I'm sure that some on the Bcouncil believe they are fighting for the greater good, but most people would disagree.

That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods.  I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution.  The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".

[groinkick]

That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods.  I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution.  The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".

I dunno.....  I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods....  I don't think anyone outside of the Black Council would like their goals, and what the result would be.

[Quantus]

I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods....

Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell.  If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin. 

[groinkick]

Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell.  If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin.

If you listen to Kumori you get the impression their goals are good.  The question is if she has been manipulated into believing nonsense or what.  She talked about keeping people alive (hello Palpatine manipulating Anakin).  However that usually means that the people they want to live will live, and to hell with the vast majority of people.

[Kindler]

Personally, my feeling on the Black Council's goal is to destroy the current order of the world to establish a new one. That usually implies that they'd be the ones at the top of that hierarchy. So less about bringing the Old Gods back and more about becoming Old Gods themselves.

I've also toyed with the idea that they're trying to help the Outsiders destroy this reality so that they can create a new one, specifically one that meets their idea of what it could or should be. In that reality, death can be impossible, for instance. But ultimately, there wouldn't be much free will in that reality, because there wouldn't be many meaningful choices, or consequences for the ones you could make.

[jonas]

Admittedly the Straightforward goal of Bring Back the rule of the Old Gods would a Damn Hard Sell.  If they were trying to take advantage of the Outsiders for a more cosmic goal like Overthrow Free Will, or Kill Death, or something then there is more room for Spin.

I find it likely the two are mutually exclusive in this case. Just from Cosmological studies, some of the DB convo with Kumori and an idea death or 'non-existence' is part of what actually makes the Gates happen. Balance.

[Quantus]

I find it likely the two are mutually exclusive in this case. Just from Cosmological studies, some of the DB convo with Kumori and an idea death or 'non-existence' is part of what actually makes the Gates happen. Balance.

More that I could see scenario's where the BC helped the Old Gods come to Power and it looked a lot like Stamping out Free Will for the bulk of the populace, and/or a complete redefinition of "The Rules" such that things like Life/Death, Time, Gods, and The Soul would theoretically be wildly different.  "Under New Management" from the top down, so to speak. 

[SerScot]

groinkick,

I dunno.....  I think the goals of the Black Council are to bring back the Old Gods....  I don't think anyone outside of the Black Council would like their goals, and what the result would be.

If their goal is to bring back the Old Gods then they are mustache twirling villains.  Those are so boring.  I'd rather have someone with really good reasons for what they do and who just go a step too far.  Killmonger in "The Black Panther" was a great villain.  Hell, he convinced the hero he was right the hero just recognized he couldn't go as far as Killmonger wanted to go.  That Killmonger would become what he hated.

That's a good villain.

[Ananda]

groinkick,

If their goal is to bring back the Old Gods then they are mustache twirling villains.  Those are so boring.  I'd rather have someone with really good reasons for what they do and who just go a step too far.  Killmonger in "The Black Panther" was a great villain.  Hell, he convinced the hero he was right the hero just recognized he couldn't go as far as Killmonger wanted to go.  That Killmonger would become what he hated.

That's a good villain.

I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.

In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.

On the “black council” thing, I still contend there isn’t one. Does Dresden even talk about it anymore since his universe expanded?  It’s been a couple of years now since I read the books, but I think he dropped that theory and it only lives on in forums now, like a revenant rattling chains.

[Mr. Death]

I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.

In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.

On the “black council” thing, I still contend there isn’t one. Does Dresden even talk about it anymore since his universe expanded?  It’s been a couple of years now since I read the books, but I think he dropped that theory and it only lives on in forums now, like a revenant rattling chains.

Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.

[Fcrate]

That's the thing, I DO think everyone will agree with their Goals, just not their Methods.  I dont think it will come down to Good Guys doing the right thing and Bad Guys being simply, Obviously Evil, Rather it will be two groups aiming at the same Goal but with wildly different plans for the execution.  The Question will be "Do the Ends Justify the Means?" and the answer can slip from No to Yes reaaaalllly Easy when the stakes are "Saving All Reality".

How would they "Kill Death" ? Kumori said that they want to stop humans from dying from "natural causes" such as age and disease. That's not killing death, is it? Human bodies are frail, and they age, and they get diseased, to stop aging and disease you'll have to alter the human DNA into something else, by Butters' definition, a body that makes 100% perfect copies of it's dying cells. Change how the immune system works and probably change the fact that cells can get infected to begin with.
That doesn't seem like a reasonable goal to me, with plenty of capicity for messing up, besides, even if it did work the result may not be "Human".
Edit:

I haven’t seen that film, but I agree with that sentiment.
How about Law Abiding Citizen?
In these books, we have Deirdre who went from being a sort of two dimensional villain side kick character to selflessly sacrificing herself to “save the universe” in Skin Game. I highly doubt she’ll return, but it’s sort of my pet theory that she’ll come back with some new role down the road. People argue that Nic had ulterior motives, but she isn’t Nic. She was a true believer as her conversation with Dresden earlier in the book and Nic’s retort to her admission of love illustrated. She was a character with a lot of potential, I thought, having been both a victim and victimiser at the same time. It was a shame she was never really developed.

I agree, I loved Deirdre's developing character in Skin Game, and poor girl, she belongs to Hades now. Ouch.

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

Cowl is the one who mentions "The Circle," so it apparently is a thing in some capacity.

Which is part of the reason why I wonder if, perhaps, there are multiple factions that may not be working in conjunction amongst those who Harry generically refers to as "the Black Council".  A single unified enemy with a singular purpose and vision would be far easier to combat than various organizations that are infighting amongst themselves.

[Mr. Death]

In a way, yes -- the Circle appears to have its hands in several different organizations.

I think the Circle, however, isn't that big. Up to now, their MO has been to send an agent (or several) into an organization and manipulate it to a particular end. They don't seem to have the outright manpower of something like the White Council, so I imagine the Circle itself is relatively small.

So I think the Circle is a single, unified enemy working through various organizations by manipulating them.

[Quantus]

If nothing else, one of the biggest theoretical differences between the Black Council and Cowl's Cirlce is that the Black Council is, basically by definition, a theoretical group of Mortal Practitioners.  Which Harry admitted was mostly his own short-sighted assumption that Mortal practitioners would be at the Center of things (yay council arrogance), whereas the Circle is an actually verified Group in that we've witness two members discussing it among themselves as compared to the purely theoretical pattern-based Black Council, and one that most likely has a wide variety of member races from Vampires to Fomor, etc.  Possibly at least one god, if only for narrative Balance since the GC has one on the roster.