Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[SerScot]

Ananda,

Also, remember, there is no “black council” as such. Dresden made it up as an early working theory to explain the small pieces he could see of what turned out to be a much larger picture. For all intents and purposes, the grey council is the closest thing to a “black council” in the books. They even said so themselves when discussing it.

Yes they did.  At the beginning of Proven Guilty Eb mentions people who "share his concerns" while talking to Harry about the traitors on the Council (only one of whom was Peabody).  I think there was organization before Harry was invited into it.  Whether that organization is what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" we will have to see.

Again, the best story are those where the antagonists are not without cause.

[SerScot]

Quantus,

To a certain extent yes, But I do think that the Blackstaff will remain the only one they expect to actually DO any Black Magic (with the possible exceptions of Vadderung and Harry himself).  There is still a very real Danger to their people if they started using the Black without the Staff's protection.  But in all the ways that Council Law differs from the Universal lines of Light Vs Dark, they will enjoy more freedom.

Aren't we speculating that the "Blackstaff" protects Eb from the influences of Black Magic?  Do we have any specific confirmation in universe that the Blackstaff has such a function?  Further, if you have organization backing the [in personum] Blackstaff how hard is it to believe that one or more of them will go a step too far in "bending" the rules to work for the goals of that organization?

[Quantus]

Quantus,

Aren't we speculating that the "Blackstaff" protects Eb from the influences of Black Magic?  Do we have any specific confirmation in universe that the Blackstaff has such a function?  Further, if you have organization backing the [in personum] Blackstaff how hard is it to believe that one or more of them will go a step too far in "bending" the rules to work for the goals of that organization?

Yup, it's been confirmed by WOJ several times.  The Speculation part is that the Blackstaff is the same item as Mother Winter's missing Walking Stick; on that one Jim has said the the Fandom has correctly guessed something about Mama Winter's stick, but did not actually confirm the specific theory. 

(click to show/hide)

2009 Independence signing:
Q:  How is Eb protected from black magic?
A:  The Blackstaff is a literal black staff.  He hasn’t had it when we’ve seen him, but he has it and it protects him.

2010 Lee’s Summit signing:
Q:  Can you tell us a little more about the black staff?
A:   The staff keeps Eb from going crazy, mostly.  Also, the White Council stole it from someone.  And they really want it back.

2010 Dragon*Con @ ~1:45
When Eb does his "Laying of the Cattle move" at the major battle near the end of Changes, is that a power of the blackstaff?
The Blackstaff is what keeps that kind of thing from driving him insane and turning him into a giggling villain.  Yah you don't go messing with black magic in the Dresden Files, it's very very bad for you.  At the same time, Magic is something that happens because you truly believe that when you set out to do it that you should be able to do that sort of thing.  That says a few things about Eb that really Harry hasn't run into in any other forum other than right there.  Yah Poor guy, He's got a tough job.
@4:30
Does the blackstaff have any powers that relate to the dead?
Other than making people dead?  Really, that's kind of the point [Crowd Laughs]  Really but the staff itself what it really does is it keeps Eb sane while he's doing insane things.  Lucky him, he gets to deal with a hideously guilty conscious and nightmares later, but that's better than later being like *Muahahahahahahahaha*  Which is sort of the other option if your going to go around using magic like that. 

2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.

As far as "How far non-protected persons would go", well, that is no different for any other wizard at any given time; Harry's done it more than once, but it's still frowned upon quite heavily.  They will almost certainly flirt with the Grey edges of the Black, but I think they will be trying very hard to Not Cross them (which I assume it not much different from what Warden's have to wrestle with regularly).

[Mr. Death]

Ananda,

Yes they did.  At the beginning of Proven Guilty Eb mentions people who "share his concerns" while talking to Harry about the traitors on the Council (only one of whom was Peabody).  I think there was organization before Harry was invited into it.  Whether that organization is what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" we will have to see.

Again, the best story are those where the antagonists are not without cause.

We've seen the things what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" have done, and they are inimical, incongruent and incompatible with what we know about the people involved in the Grey Council, specifically Ebenezer and Odin.

[Kindler]

inimical, incongruent and incompatible

Props for the assonance.

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

We've seen the things what Harry perceives as the "Black Council" have done, and they are inimical, incongruent and incompatible with what we know about the people involved in the Grey Council, specifically Ebenezer and Odin.

Do we know why they were doing those things or are we assuming they did them only to further their own power.  You are assuming no one on the Grey Council will take actions that we might see as "evil" for "the greater good".

[Mr. Death]

It doesn't really matter why. What they were doing, the methods they employed and the allies they worked with, are bad. Evil, even.

What greater good does murdering defenseless women serve? What greater good does kicking off a new ice age serve? What greater good does blowing up Demonreach and calling outsiders into the world serve?

It doesn't matter what lame justifications they might give. The things they are doing are evil and contrary to everything Harry, Odin and Ebenezer have been shown to believe in.

[groinkick]

Mr. Death,

Do we know why they were doing those things or are we assuming they did them only to further their own power.  You are assuming no one on the Grey Council will take actions that we might see as "evil" for "the greater good".

Step outside of the story for a moment.  Do you think Jim is the type of writer who at the end of the series it will turn out that the Black Council are actually good guys, and Dresden is on the wrong side? 

[Quantus]

Step outside of the story for a moment.  Do you think Jim is the type of writer who at the end of the series it will turn out that the Black Council are actually good guys, and Dresden is on the wrong side?

Honestly?  Yes, 100%

“No one is an unjust villain in his own mind. Even - perhaps even especially - those who are the worst of us. Some of the cruelest tyrants in history were motivated by noble ideals, or made choices that they would call 'hard but necessary steps' for the good of their nation. We're all the hero of our own story.”

― Jim Butcher, Turn Coat

[groinkick]

Honestly?  Yes, 100%

If I'm not mistake Jim was giving an example of how to write really good villains, and that their motives in their own minds are good.  We know what motivates Harry, we got a pretty good idea about what motivates Eb (unless he's been lying), and others...  Cowl, the Black Council, Nicoemus all have their motives, but Jim is also pretty good about drawing the distinction between good motives, and bad.  Dresden, Eb, Murphy, Odin....  They aren't perfect, they are capable of doing nasty things but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that Jim has drawn the distinction about who is bad, and who is not in the Dresden Files.  Unless what they have shown is pure deception in which case the character we thought we knew wasn't true in the beliefs they have displayed.

One example of Eb being dark side I have thought of is that one of the side effects of the Blackstaff  (unknown to the user) is that it can create an alternate personality that comes to the surface from time to time...  So Eb might be trying to track down Cowl to kill him when in reality he is Cowl and doesn't know it.

[Fcrate]

Unless the world isn't ours, that we stole it and the outsiders want it back. Then yes, were in the wrong.

[Quantus]

If I'm not mistake Jim was giving an example of how to write really good villains, and that their motives in their own minds are good.  We know what motivates Harry, we got a pretty good idea about what motivates Eb (unless he's been lying), and others...  Cowl, the Black Council, Nicoemus all have their motives, but Jim is also pretty good about drawing the distinction between good motives, and bad.  Dresden, Eb, Murphy, Odin....  They aren't perfect, they are capable of doing nasty things but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that Jim has drawn the distinction about who is bad, and who is not in the Dresden Files.  Unless what they have shown is pure deception in which case the character we thought we knew wasn't true in the beliefs they have displayed.

One example of Eb being dark side I have thought of is that one of the side effects of the Blackstaff  (unknown to the user) is that it can create an alternate personality that comes to the surface from time to time...  So Eb might be trying to track down Cowl to kill him when in reality he is Cowl and doesn't know it.

Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause.  It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell.  Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way.  Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom. 

[groinkick]

Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause.  It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell.  Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way.  Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom.

To each his own!  Jim could pull a switcharoo on us but I don't think so.  Maybe with a character but I don't think with Dresden or the grey council as a whole.  I don't see it turning out that the Black Council is actually a group of wizard fighting for the greater good.

[SerScot]

Nah, the way I see it if he did make Harry the ultimate villain it would be in an entirely believable, sympathetic, and purely *mundane* cause.  It would be a path that we walked with him ever step of the way with completely Good /intentions/, and /still/ managed to look back and see a freshly paved road to Hell.  Basically I think the BAT is going to be a rabbit-hole of the Grey Line between black and white, and I could see Harry coming out either way.  Not that I think the whole series will end with Harry destroying the world or whatever, but he may need to be stopped at the edge of Mt. Doom.

I love that idea.  Absolutely love it.

[Quantus]

To each his own!  Jim could pull a switcharoo on us but I don't think so.  Maybe with a character but I don't think with Dresden or the grey council as a whole.  I don't see it turning out that the Black Council is actually a group of wizard fighting for the greater good.

Oh, Im confident at least some of them are fighting for A Greater Good.  Whether everyone will agree with either the "Greater" or the "Good" part of that, who knows.  At the very least we do know of one (Kumori) that is doing it for idealistic reasons rather than selfish ones.  Hell, I dont think he's BC but Id be willing to describe Nic that way.


My actual prediction is that the BAT will be a big, ugly exploration of the Grey of Magic and Morality, lots of hard choices, hard Sacrifices, and Good Intentions taking things Southward.  And the whole time we'll be seeing Elaine, off on her own, doing things we dont understand and that might seem downright Villainous if viewed with a bit of circumstantial Suspicion (which is the default for at least half the fan-base when if comes to Elaine).  Everything will point to her being a direct Counterpart to Harry, Summer to his Winter, the Other Starborn, etc etc.  At the end it will come down to Trusting Elaine, despite all his allies telling him not to. Jim said once that it will end in such a way where it hinges on Harry being the guy at the end making the Choice (dont quote me on phrasing) such that anyone else in his position would go the wrong way with it, that Being Who and What harry is at that moment is what would make the difference.  In light of that sentiment: I think it will come down to Trust and respecting Free Will: and the most difficult way to do that is often just having to Stand Aside and trust Somebody Else's plan.