Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[Fcrate]

Yes, every organization's members could potentially be flipped, even those infected by Nemesis. Remember something that Mab or someone said "I think".. She said: Yes, she can be cured, but she has to want to be cured.

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

What reason do we have to doubt Ebenezer's word? What actions have been attributed to him that would make one think he's lying?

As far as I'm concerned, those other two members confirm what side the Grey Council is on.

He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved.  He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself.  Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal.  I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.

[Kindler]

Mr. Death,

He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved.  He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself.  Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal.  I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.

That's fair enough, but I doubt that the Truths about the Grey Council will be anything that would make me cringe, or totally mistrust Eb. Maybe some morally Grey stuff (see how clever I am!) close to what we knew about the Fellowship of St. Giles. Espionage, questionable judgment calls, harsh responses, ruthlessness—that kind of thing I could see, but no bombshell that would push Eb into the Bad Guy category.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death,

He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved.  He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself.  Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal.  I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.

I don't see how any of that points to Ebenezer being a badguy.

Does it say he hid things from Harry (arguably for Harry's own protection)? Yes. Does it say he did those things out of villainous intentions? No, quite the opposite.

Harry's lied to his allies or hidden truths from them for the same sorts of reasons ("You don't want to get involved with this," "You'll be in danger if you know this," "I don't want my enemies to know we're related."). Do those make Harry a bad guy?

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

I don't see how any of that points to Ebenezer being a badguy.

Does it say he hid things from Harry (arguably for Harry's own protection)? Yes. Does it say he did those things out of villainous intentions? No, quite the opposite.

Harry's lied to his allies or hidden truths from them for the same sorts of reasons ("You don't want to get involved with this," "You'll be in danger if you know this," "I don't want my enemies to know we're related."). Do those make Harry a bad guy?

You are looking at this in a very "black v. white" and morally absolute fashion.  As such you are missing my point.  I suspect that Eb is not the "good guy" some want him to be.  I suspect that he is not a paragon of moral virtue and that by some people's defintions he may even be a "bad guy".  That doesn't mean I think he is, as I said before, a mustache twirling villain, just that he may be a much darker shade of gray than anyone suspects.

[groinkick]

Mr. Death,

He lied to Harry about the significance of the Laws and didn't tell Harry that he had a license to kill him if he misbehaved.  He never told Harry he was his Grandfather until after Harry figured it out for himself.  Eb may not lie but he has a long history of choosing which "truths" he will choose to reveal.  I would be floored if there weren't much more to the "Grey Council" than Eb is choosing to tell Harry.

what!?!?  he drilled the laws into Harry's head. 

The reason he didn't tell Harry about the Blackstaff is obvious for a number of reasons.  First off he doesn't want to confuse a person who's shown the ability to go dark side that breaking the laws of magic are "ok" under certain circumstances.  He wanted Harry to know the laws of magic, and drill home that they must be followed.  Showing that he's the Blackstaff and breaks those rules would only prove confusing, and someone like Harry who's naturally defiant would be more tempted to violate the laws.

Second I mean it's a covert position, why would he share that?

[SerScot]

what!?!?  he drilled the laws into Harry's head.

While breaking them himself.  He said they were absolutes.  Clearly, they aren't.

[groinkick]

While breaking them himself.  He said they were absolutes.  Clearly, they aren't.

And Harry who is tempted to go dark side would have had the same response which goes to show that it was a good thing that Eb didn't tell him.

The laws are to stop corruption caused by using the magic, not because of morality...  They are against killing with magic but don't hesitate to cut your head off hence it's about corruption.  Eb has a tool that prevents such corruption.  He's the only person on the Council with such a tool so the laws are absolute for everyone else.

[Mr. Death]

Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.

Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?

My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.

I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.

So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.

[groinkick]

Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.

Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?

My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.

I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.

So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.

Lets not also forget that before becoming Blackstaff, Eb was captain of the Wardens, and well known for taking down warlocks.

[Quantus]

Ebenezer being an explicit exception to the laws doesn't mean he was lying about their nature.

Cops have the authority to shoot people in the course of their duties -- does that change the nature of laws prohibiting murder?

My point is, the "morally dark" things that have been attributed to him have had explicit or implicit good aims. His goal, demonstrated by his actions, is to protect humanity and uphold the Laws of Magic against abuse and corruption. When asked, he showed enormous regret and sadness that he did what he had to do.

I argue he has the Blackstaff because he is as close to a paragon of moral virtue as the Council has. You wouldn't want to give the Blackstaff to anyone else because otherwise you're inviting someone to abuse the power.

So Ebenezer has lied or omitted things. Taking into account everything we've seen of his character, though, that is not nearly enough to suggest that he's lying about his intentions with the Grey Council or his opposition to the Circle/Black Council.

100% agree. 

[Ananda]

We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council.  We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.

Also, remember, there is no “black council” as such. Dresden made it up as an early working theory to explain the small pieces he could see of what turned out to be a much larger picture. For all intents and purposes, the grey council is the closest thing to a “black council” in the books. They even said so themselves when discussing it.

[peregrine]

They said they'd be blamed as the Black Council, which is not the same.

[Avernite]

I am, myself, seeing the Grey Council as basically the Blackstaff writ large: the guys able to bend the rules to get the job done, when the official rules prevent proper action.

As such, with Harry and Odin onboard, we can pretty much assume they are facets of Ebenezar's outlook on life - a good guy, who will not hesitate to take direct action or engage in shady business if necessary, but unlike Harry, that is not his only way of acting (and Harry's growing out of it).

[Quantus]

I am, myself, seeing the Grey Council as basically the Blackstaff writ large: the guys able to bend the rules to get the job done, when the official rules prevent proper action.

As such, with Harry and Odin onboard, we can pretty much assume they are facets of Ebenezar's outlook on life - a good guy, who will not hesitate to take direct action or engage in shady business if necessary, but unlike Harry, that is not his only way of acting (and Harry's growing out of it).

To a certain extent yes, But I do think that the Blackstaff will remain the only one they expect to actually DO any Black Magic (with the possible exceptions of Vadderung and Harry himself).  There is still a very real Danger to their people if they started using the Black without the Staff's protection.  But in all the ways that Council Law differs from the Universal lines of Light Vs Dark, they will enjoy more freedom.