Could Mavra be under Eb's control?

[SerScot]

Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.

I don't see any actions Ebenezer has taken -- or has had attributed to him -- that indicate he could possibly be Black Council.

Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is.  That’s my whole point.

[Quantus]

Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is.  That’s my whole point.

So your not saying that maybe the Grey Council is secretly Black, you are saying that maybe the Black Council is secretly Grey?

I can dig it. 

[Kindler]

Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is.  That’s my whole point.

Okay, now I'm understanding what you meant a bit better, and what you meant about doing what's necessary, etc. If the Black Council/Circle/Cowl and his SuperPals were actually working towards a goal that was less "Destroy the World because we're the Bad Guys and that's Our Job" and more "We have to Destroy Some Things to Save the Rest" or something less obviously...black, then I could see Eb working alongside them.

That said, I think that the Black Council is way too morally bankrupt for Eb to work with them. Peabody, for instance, popped a mordite-infused mistfiend into a dark, crowded room, offing fifty wizards, for instance. There's being an antihero, and there's being a villain with an excuse.

[Mr. Death]

Then, perhaps the “Black Council” isn’t what we think it is.  That’s my whole point.

What has the Black Council done -- either on screen or attributed to them -- that indicates that they're anything besides black-hearted villains?

Was it when they backed a plot to murder innocent women and thus prevent magically adept humans from being born?

Was it when their agents sought to blow up Demonreach, which would've destroyed a chunk of the US and killed millions?

Was it when Peabody murdered a Senior Council member and framed the Wardens to try and subvert and divide the council, then murdered dozens of wizards with mordite when he was found out?

Perhaps it was when their allies, the Fomor, were kidnapping innocent men, women and children and planned to murder an unborn child to break the mother?

Seriously -- everything that could possibly be attributed to the Black Council is abhorrent and evil actions.

[Snark Knight]

Considering Odin is also Grey Council and he is clearly not Black Council, and that the single Grey Council action we've seen was a massive strike against the Black Council's biggest weapon -- with Lea and by extension Mab calling them into that battle directly -- this argument just does not hold any water with me.

Besides which, Ariana was ultimately trying to use the bloodline curse to kill Ebenezar. If it had just been about Harry, she could have blown him up in his office at any time. That doesn't scream that they were secret colleagues on the Black Council to me.

[SerScot]

So your not saying that maybe the Grey Council is secretly Black, you are saying that maybe the Black Council is secretly Grey?

I can dig it.

Precisely.

[SerScot]

Mr. Death,

What has the Black Council done -- either on screen or attributed to them -- that indicates that they're anything besides black-hearted villains?

Was it when they backed a plot to murder innocent women and thus prevent magically adept humans from being born?

Was it when their agents sought to blow up Demonreach, which would've destroyed a chunk of the US and killed millions?

Was it when Peabody murdered a Senior Council member and framed the Wardens to try and subvert and divide the council, then murdered dozens of wizards with mordite when he was found out?

Perhaps it was when their allies, the Fomor, were kidnapping innocent men, women and children and planned to murder an unborn child to break the mother?

Seriously -- everything that could possibly be attributed to the Black Council is abhorrent and evil actions.

Again, we don't know enough to know who was behind all that.  What I wonder is if "the Circle" isn't a splinter off of the "Grey Council" which is what Harry has thought was the "Black Council".  There can and might be more than one organization moving in the background undermining the power of the White Council.

[SerScot]

Snark Knight,

Besides which, Ariana was ultimately trying to use the bloodline curse to kill Ebenezar. If it had just been about Harry, she could have blown him up in his office at any time. That doesn't scream that they were secret colleagues on the Black Council to me.

You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle.  We don't know that they were.  If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza? 

[Snark Knight]

You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle.  We don't know that they were.  If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza?

Not all the Reds as a unified nation, just Ariana. Cowl doesn't need to be present at every single thing the Circle does - it would have been actively counterproductive to Ariana's moment of political glory to have a dark wizard around seen as supervising her. She never figured on Harry piecing together what they were up to in time to turn it into a slugging match.

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death,

Again, we don't know enough to know who was behind all that.  What I wonder is if "the Circle" isn't a splinter off of the "Grey Council" which is what Harry has thought was the "Black Council".  There can and might be more than one organization moving in the background undermining the power of the White Council.

We know enough to start drawing conclusions; we can place Outsiders behind several of those actions, and people who we've since learned were allied with Outsiders at the others.

"Black Council" is a name Harry came up with, but "The Circle" fits what he'd assumed and concluded about the Black Council.

And the "Grey Council" was deliberately and explicitly founded in response to the Black Council/Circle, so it makes no sense for the Circle to have splintered off from it.

What we still do not have is any actions taken by suspected or confirmed members of the Circle/Black Council doing anything we can construe as being good or well-intentioned. Nor have any of their agents offered justification for why they're doing evil things.

The idea that the Black Council is somehow not badguys just plain does not have support in the text, and neither does the idea that Ebenezer is their ally.

[nedserD C B yrraH]

Well, if we circle back to DB, we get to see a justification of "black magic" used to preserve life by Kumori, who is directly attached to Cowl, who is part of the Circle. That doesn't, in any way, rule out the Black Council being the in universe front for the the Outsiders. But it could indicate that members of the organization are capable of being turned. If Kumori were smacked in the face with proof that her noble goal of ending death would actually ruin existence, she might leave the Black Council or turn double agent. Combined with Nic's "One day" remark about being a Saint, I think it is entirely possible the end goals of the Black Council are EVIL, but they have deceived members with false hopes and impossible utopias.

[Mr. Death]

That I can agree with -- and I think it's notable that we didn't see Kumori with Cowl the second time, and I don't think it's because she died.

[SerScot]

We know enough to start drawing conclusions; we can place Outsiders behind several of those actions, and people who we've since learned were allied with Outsiders at the others.

"Black Council" is a name Harry came up with, but "The Circle" fits what he'd assumed and concluded about the Black Council.

And the "Grey Council" was deliberately and explicitly founded in response to the Black Council/Circle, so it makes no sense for the Circle to have splintered off from it.

What we still do not have is any actions taken by suspected or confirmed members of the Circle/Black Council doing anything we can construe as being good or well-intentioned. Nor have any of their agents offered justification for why they're doing evil things.

The idea that the Black Council is somehow not badguys just plain does not have support in the text, and neither does the idea that Ebenezer is their ally.

We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council.  We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.

[groinkick]

Snark Knight,

You are assuming the Reds were part of the Black Council/The Circle.  We don't know that they were.  If they were where was Cowl at Chichen Itza?

Probably working behind the scenes somewhere else while Dresden, Leah, KoTC, and other allies were distracted at Chichen Itza.  Also remember that only wizards can summon Outsiders.  So where the Outsiders have been you can start making connections to the Black Council.

[Mr. Death]

We have only Eb's word about the rationale and structure of the Grey Council.  We know two other members but we don't know why they joined or what they hope to get out of the Grey Council.

What reason do we have to doubt Ebenezer's word? What actions have been attributed to him that would make one think he's lying?

As far as I'm concerned, those other two members confirm what side the Grey Council is on.