Jim Butcher interview from 2 months ago

[Quantus]

he could have been a white necromancer raising the spirits like he did in book 3

Interesting choice of words...

[groinkick]

Interesting choice of words...

How so?

[raidem]

The white nevernever didn't really seem like it was the option as Jim said it was full blown necromancer and then ended up throwing that white necro out there as a possibility. It wasn't the three main options. 

[Quantus]

How so?

It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue

[raidem]

It was spelled out that Sue wasn't against the Laws of Magic as she wasn't Human.  I guess her instance was a form of Grey Necromancy perhaps, at least not Black.  Actually, he did try to control her at first vs he didn't try to control the ghosts in Grave Peril. So that may figure into the equation too but still it wasn't a Black act.

So, the method of the Necromancy is part of the determination of what is Black, or White, or Grey.  And the Method considers what type of entity is used, and what level of control is given to the entity raised.  I'd think if Harry had taken the Spirits in GP but bound them to his will against their will I'd say that would cross the line into a more Black magic than White.

[jonas]

It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue

Sir Stuart explained it I think. Ghosts and other spirits are not supposed to pierce the veil to manifest or otherwise directly effect mortals... I think part of that is that mortal choice/fate thing. But a necromancer is empowering things that go directly against that on both accounts, bringing it back through and giving it a direct tie to his own mortal magic, the ability to effect fate. Remember it's always kept alive by said summoner just like binders men. They're enabled. *we know piercing the veil gives direct negative effects to said spirits, why wouldn't it contaminate those whom they are literally connected to?
Slight tangent, I think this goes also into the positive/negative aspect of the spiritual plain. With things like the fae possessing enough pull here to mantle a host without disagreeing with said law or simply to cross over of their own will. Something not everything can do.

[Quantus]

Sir Stuart explained it I think. Ghosts and other spirits are not supposed to pierce the veil to manifest or otherwise directly effect mortals... I think part of that is that mortal choice/fate thing. But a necromancer is empowering things that go directly against that on both accounts, bringing it back through and giving it a direct tie to his own mortal magic, the ability to effect fate. Remember it's always kept alive by said summoner just like binders men. They're enabled. *we know piercing the veil gives direct negative effects to said spirits, why wouldn't it contaminate those whom they are literally connected to?
Slight tangent, I think this goes also into the positive/negative aspect of the spiritual plain. With things like the fae possessing enough pull here to mantle a host without disagreeing with said law or simply to cross over of their own will. Something not everything can do.

This was always something of a point of debate on that: whether there was any qualitative difference in the Energies behind the Ectomancy that Mort does and actual Necromancy.  In one theory they are using qualitatively different energies, one of which is safe (as much as normal Life magic use anyway) while the other is innately twisting.  In the other theory, which the concept of a White Necromancy supports, is the idea that the underlying energy is the same and is not innately Black, but that only certain uses of it is.

Among other things this tells me that Kumori is not nearly as Naive as Id been assuming. 

[Fcrate]

Mort used Harry's spirit against his will in GS, how is that different? I'm leaning towards the "Intent" theory.

[raidem]

Among other things this tells me that Kumori is not nearly as Naive as Id been assuming.

Same for Cowl for that matter. He used the others necromancy fields to get close to ground zero of the Darkhallow.  He may have done it that way to limit the taint of black magic that comes with necromancy.

[Quantus]

Mort used Harry's spirit against his will in GS, how is that different? I'm leaning towards the "Intent" theory.

If its the scene Im thinking of, I dont think he did (at least not in the strict subconscious Free Will sense).  He was "instinctively"  moving to save Mort and tripped.

I moved on instinct, throwing myself uselessly between the weapon and the ectomancer. I tripped on a fragment of the ghost-dust-painted door and wound up falling in a heap on top of Mort and . . . . . . sunk into him.

[jonas]

If its the scene Im thinking of, I dont think he did (at least not in the strict subconscious Free Will sense).  He was "instinctively"  moving to save Mort and tripped.

Yea, and Mort instinctively didn't fight it cause he knew Harry's experience and power was greater.

This was always something of a point of debate on that: whether there was any qualitative difference in the Energies behind the Ectomancy that Mort does and actual Necromancy.

I'd say absolutely... but it does start to get a bit nuanced in it's reasoning and intention. Like Stu surviving longer intact basically because of his purpose towards a part of life, his familial connections... Something eerily similar to the Rent paid elsewhere and the balances kept as well.. That's why I use the logic of the yin-yang and Bagua design literally everything started as wuji, one state, then yin-yang which spins the five elements out into the 8 manifestations(Mountain, Ocean, ect) into the 64 variations and so on. Which a cross with a nice mythos, I think Maori or somewhere close, that states basically the same thing except that all things that exist in the light exist first as shadows in the endlessly dividing darkness that seeks to reform as one state/being,whom I also cross here with Cronus/Chronos as well as the mentioned Slowest Terror/Hunter of Shadows. It sets a nice frame work so it doesn't boggle me to think about, and is not at all inaccurate in most ways. It's just finding what he actually did with the idea.

[groinkick]

It implies that Necromancy is not innately Black Magic

Of course it's not.  Kumori used it to keep injured people alive. 

as we'd been led to believe.  Id always considered that one one of the more simlistic Laws since it was more banning a qualitative Energy rather than an Act; it banned the Method rather than the motivation.  Id taken it to mean that Necromancy was in itself a Black Magic energy that innately Tainted you (comparable to say Outsiders), and that eventually he'd pay some Price for Sue

Time travel isn't "black" magic but it's punishable by death.

[Quantus]

Of course it's not.  Kumori used it to keep injured people alive. 

And harry used it to raise a zombie dinosaur. Which I been under the impression had still stained him with detectable black magic, same as his earlier run-in's with Black Magic had stained him in a detectable way. 

Time travel isn't "black" magic but it's punishable by death.

And stabbing a Senior Council Member in the face is punishable by death but is not Black Magic Council "Justice" is a wildly different topic.   

[groinkick]

And harry used it to raise a zombie dinosaur. Which I been under the impression had still stained him with detectable black magic, same as his earlier run-in's with Black Magic had stained him in a detectable way. 

I don't think so... Maybe though.

And stabbing a Senior Council Member in the face is punishable by death but is not Black Magic Council "Justice" is a wildly different topic.   

Actually it's not.  There are no laws against killing senior council members.  It doesn't happen for 2 good reasons:  1.  They would probably kill you first, and 2.  Someone close to them is probably gonna come looking for you.

[Quantus]

Actually it's not.  There are no laws against killing senior council members.  It doesn't happen for 2 good reasons:  1.  They would probably kill you first, and 2.  Someone close to them is probably gonna come looking for you.

You mean except for the guy that they hunted down and put on trial with full intention of executing for stabbing a senior council member?