Peace Talks character death wag

[Maz]

While I whole-heartedly agree that this is prime time for McCoy to die, Susan wasn't the only emotional death and for me was probably the 3rd or 4th so...  I'd say Morgan made me 10x misty-eyed compared to Susan.  But maybe I'm just weird.

My only contra to the McCoy dying argument is that I'm not sure Harry is entirely ready to step up into McCoy's shoes and giving the staff to him in particular has complications...  I'm presuming if McCoy dies, the staff either goes to the new Blackstaff or else reverts to its owner...  To keep it under control of the council but give it to Dresden, McCoy would have to circumvent the council in delivering it and somehow geas Dresden to only use it for Council purposes.  Absent the geas, the staff would possibly be considered reverting to Winter which would cause an imbalance of power... If McCoy didn't deliver the staff to Dresden, then I imagine the Council itself would determine the recipient and there is no way Dresden is on the list of primary recipients... which could also lend itself to an interim holder from McCoy's death until the time Dresden takes it up.

[Mira]

   I seem to recall a "Tweet" from Jim maybe a year ago give or take that he was  emotional after writing Murphy's funeral...  It created a bit of stir here of course.  The question is, was he really or just pulling our legs? 

[wardenferry419]

Hopefully we will find out around November. That is my rare optimism talking.

[Mira]

Some would say that it is Murphy's time to die....  Harry loves her, that alone is the kiss of death...   Also since she left the police force and refused to become a Holy Knight, there isn't a real place for her that is meaningful, that is why she appears so hollow in the last couple of books.

[raidem]

We now have Jim responding yes that there will be a cost for Murphy to standby Harry.  And yes, smirk, he thinks he knows what it will be.

[groinkick]

   I seem to recall a "Tweet" from Jim maybe a year ago give or take that he was  emotional after writing Murphy's funeral...  It created a bit of stir here of course.  The question is, was he really or just pulling our legs?

It was a joke.  If memory serves it was people constantly asking about the book, and how far he was or something so he responded "I'm writing Murphy's funeral!"

Some would say that it is Murphy's time to die....  Harry loves her, that alone is the kiss of death...   Also since she left the police force and refused to become a Holy Knight, there isn't a real place for her that is meaningful, that is why she appears so hollow in the last couple of books.

I guess it's Michael's time to die as well.  Not every character needs to die when they aren't ready to be on the front lines fighting.  I think what it's showing is just as Harry has outgrown his enemies of the past, he is now getting to a point where his allies of the past just aren't up to fighting the fights he's going to be having...  Marcone, Murphy, the Alpha's, Thomas....  They just aren't on par with Harry anymore, he's too big just as the enemies he's going to be facing are too big.

To paraphrase The Thinker "Those were children with play guns, their powers were nothing."

As for Murphy not really being meaningful for the stories, that's up to Jim.  Louis Lane didn't have powers but to Superman she was his rock, his port in the storm.  Murphy's meaningfulness might be less about her fighting ability and more about being Harry's port in the storm.

[Mira]

As for Murphy not really being meaningful for the stories, that's up to Jim.  Louis Lane didn't have powers but to Superman she was his rock, his port in the storm.  Murphy's meaningfulness might be less about her fighting ability and more about being Harry's port in the storm.

  But in the Superman stories once Superman grew up he and all those around him seemed to freeze in time...  The never aged from Jimmy Olsen to the guy who ran the newspaper, so MS Lane as the perpetual perky inquisitive foil remained plausible.... More or less...  Susan was good in that role until it got serious between them and then seemingly Jim had no
where to go with her, even when she became a half turned vamp, which could have kept her interesting..  While Murphy might remain meaningful as Harry's port in the storm, she isn't his only port anymore..

Jim may have meant it as a joke, but even joking about it says it is on his mind..

I guess it's Michael's time to die as well.  Not every character needs to die when they aren't ready to be on the front lines fighting.  I think what it's showing is just as Harry has outgrown his enemies of the past, he is now getting to a point where his allies of the past just aren't up to fighting the fights he's going to be having...  Marcone, Murphy, the Alpha's, Thomas....  They just aren't on par with Harry anymore, he's too big just as the enemies he's going to be facing are too big.

True, most know perfectly well they are not on par with Harry, but Murphy doesn't...  That is the point, she thinks she knows Harry and what is best for him, but she is in fact clueless about him, this is what made  her a liability in Skin Game to the point of disaster, i.e. the breaking of a Holy Sword..  Someone earlier spoke of setting up what is to come in the next books...  I think we are being prepared for her exit, whether it is a mere break up or something more lasting..  I also think if her role is diminished from being someone who physically fights at Harry's side to some "emotional port in the storm," not just fans in general but her fans will be disappointed..

[raidem]

rue, most know perfectly well they are not on par with Harry, but Murphy doesn't...  That is the point, she thinks she knows Harry and what is best for him, but she is in fact clueless about him, this is what made  her a liability in Skin Game to the point of disaster, i.e. the breaking of a Holy Sword..  Someone earlier spoke of setting up what is to come in the next books...  I think we are being prepared for her exit, whether it is a mere break up or something more lasting..  I also think if her role is diminished from being someone who physically fights at Harry's side to some "emotional port in the storm," not just fans in general but her fans will be disappointed..

I agree with Mira's sentiments. Murphy's role will change.  And I think the best way would be to incorporate her end into a time traveling story where she ends up hidden behind a mantle that has already been onscreen.  That way, there is a cost to Murphy standing by Harry.  And, she is in a way seemingly written out of the story except she has always remained.  We just find out she goes by another Name.

Also, if we take Jim's statement as some nugget of truth with respect to writing about "Murphy's funeral," then we must also consider the Gandalf the Grey death.  In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf the Grey died.  And yet, Gandalf the White rose.  So, I wouldn't take it that 'Murphy's funeral" means Karrin Murphy dies, end of story.  And we aren't even sure that "Murphy" necessarily means Karrin.  There are other Murphy family members that can fit that name too.

[groinkick]

But in the Superman stories once Superman grew up he and all those around him seemed to freeze in time...   While Murphy might remain meaningful as Harry's port in the storm, she isn't his only port anymore..

A port in the storm need not be a love interest.  Michael is also like this for Harry.  Murphy may become more of a sisterly type person for Dresden.  I personally don't feel the chemistry for them anymore as lovers even if it was strongly suggested in Skin Game with Harry's dream.

Jim may have meant it as a joke, but even joking about it says it is on his mind..

Probably just wishful thinking .  Jim also knows how to tweak his fans.

True, most know perfectly well they are not on par with Harry, but Murphy doesn't...  That is the point, she thinks she knows Harry and what is best for him, but she is in fact clueless about him, this is what made  her a liability in Skin Game to the point of disaster, i.e. the breaking of a Holy Sword..  Someone earlier spoke of setting up what is to come in the next books...  I think we are being prepared for her exit, whether it is a mere break up or something more lasting.. 

Murphy does know she's not on par.  She took up the job because of love for Harry, it was also her reason for the Sword breaking.  Harry was responsible for Excalibur nearly being destroyed. 

I also think if her role is diminished from being someone who physically fights at Harry's side to some "emotional port in the storm," not just fans in general but her fans will be disappointed... 

I'm a fan and wouldn't be bothered.  I'd be more bothered if she died. 

[raidem]

Murphy does know she's not on par.  She took up the job because of love for Harry, it was also her reason for the Sword breaking.  Harry was responsible for Excalibur nearly being destroyed. 

And for Harry it was a learning experience that he used against the Denarians in Small Favor.  Who is to say Murphy won't use her learning experience with the breaking of the Sword of Faith later on too.

[groinkick]

And for Harry it was a learning experience that he used against the Denarians in Small Favor.  Who is to say Murphy won't use her learning experience with the breaking of the Sword of Faith later on too.

I was just defending her for making an understandable error.

[Mira]

Murphy does know she's not on par.  She took up the job because of love for Harry, it was also her reason for the Sword breaking.  Harry was responsible for Excalibur nearly being destroyed

Really?  Which job? Knight or Custodian?   Knight, Harry asked her because he was Custodian and she was the right match for the job to go to C.I.  Beyond that I don't think he knew or understood about long term verses one night stand Knights...  Perhaps Murphy accepted for the love of Harry but that was the wrong reason, which she at least understood about herself and rejected the long term gig... Custodian?  Not so sure she did that for the love of Harry, more she thought there was no one else, but when Harry came back she clearly thought she knew better than him, that she knew all about him and why she was a better judge than he, she was totally wrong...  Her reason for breaking the Sword had nothing to do with her love for Harry, it was about her putting herself in God's place to judge Nic....  He may have used her love of Harry to goad her into acting but it was her own arrogance that did it.

I'm a fan and wouldn't be bothered.  I'd be more bothered if she died.

Again, really?  Expand

And for Harry it was a learning experience that he used against the Denarians in Small Favor.  Who is to say Murphy won't use her learning experience with the breaking of the Sword of Faith later on too.

You think she will get her hands on a Sword again?  Doubtful,  not unless she gives up her whole belief system.. Not saying she can't or won't, but.......

As for ports in a storm, Michael has proven himself a better one than Murphy as has Molly, Thomas, Gatekeeper, Eb, Listens to Wind, even Leah and Mab...  She is just one of many...

[Fcrate]

I was just defending her for making an understandable error.

It's not that understandable really. The logical choice would've been to shoot him. Even if she didn't know the sword's vulnerability, bullets are harder to dodge than blades, and given Murphy's background, it makes more sense to use her gun. Why use the sword? It seems to me that Uriel had a hand in this, culminating in Butters becoming a knight at the end.

[groinkick]

Perhaps Murphy accepted for the love of Harry but that was the wrong reason, which she at least understood about herself and rejected the long term gig...

The Sword worked perfectly for her up until Nicodemus surrendered.  She was in the right up until that moment where emotion overran reason. 

Custodian?  Not so sure she did that for the love of Harry, more she thought there was no one else, but when Harry came back she clearly thought she knew better than him, that she knew all about him and why she was a better judge than he, she was totally wrong...

Really?  Mab could literally have ordered Harry to get her the Sword and he'd have been powerless to stop it.  Even without Mab's orders Harry was under the Mantle's influence.  He was so terrified about the Winter Knight Mantle he chose suicide.  If Harry was willing to have himself killed because of the Mantle why would Murphy trust the Sword with him?
 Murphy's judgement was correct that a Sword may be vulnerable under such circumstances.

Her reason for breaking the Sword had nothing to do with her love for Harry, it was about her putting herself in God's place to judge Nic.... 

Quite a judgement being made there

As for ports in a storm, Michael has proven himself a better one than Murphy as has Molly, Thomas, Gatekeeper, Eb, Listens to Wind, even Leah and Mab...  She is just one of many...

No such thing as too many people to love

Again, really?  Expand

As a fan why would I prefer her to die? 

[Mira]

Really?  Mab could literally have ordered Harry to get her the Sword and he'd have been powerless to stop it.  Even without Mab's orders Harry was under the Mantle's influence.  He was so terrified about the Winter Knight Mantle he chose suicide.  If Harry was willing to have himself killed because of the Mantle why would Murphy trust the Sword with him?
 Murphy's judgement was correct that a Sword may be vulnerable under such circumstances.

Not talking about Mab and the Sword...  Oh Murphy was correct that the Sword was vulnerable but then she went ahead and did exactly the thing that made it vulnerable... But that isn't the point,  the point is she is clueless about the post Changes Harry... She wants him to return to pre Changes Harry, that man is dead, she is afraid of the post changes Harry..  Does Murphy even realize that Harry suicided to avoid getting the Winter Knight's mantle?  Or that he is on first name basis with an Archangel?  Well, she might now..

The Sword worked perfectly for her up until Nicodemus surrendered.  She was in the right up until that moment where emotion overran reason.

No,  for the record her ovaries had nothing to do with it....  Love had nothing to do with it..   The Sword is meant to fight Denarians, but if the Denarian surrenders, then he/she is allowed a chance to seek a path to redemption..  Murphy says up front before the fight began, before that anyone knew she had the Sword concealed in that tube, that she didn't believe in redemption for Denarians..   What broke the Sword was her condemnation of Nic, the "damn you.."  Judgement is for God not Knights..

Quite a judgement being made there

Only quoting or paraphrasing not just Michael's words, or Uriel's words, but Murphy's own words... 

No such thing as too many people to love

True, but she isn't indispensable,  Harry has many friends to turn to for love and support is the point..

As a fan why would I prefer her to die? 

If she ceases to be Murphy you might....  If she goes too afar a field from what she originally was..  When the book is perhaps more readable without her than with her... Or it doesn't matter if she appears on the page or not..