Author Topic: The way male writers describe women  (Read 10064 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2018, 12:23:45 AM »
 :) perfectly fine
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2018, 12:29:06 AM »
Muchas gracia, Dina, y buenos noches.
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Offline Dina

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2018, 12:46:27 AM »
De nada y buenas noches
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Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2018, 02:06:53 AM »
The only thing I can add to this conversation is the Dresden Files, and particularly the first three books, are very much influenced by 1940's detective fiction.  In Storm Front, Jim lifted the basic plot structure of "Farewell My Lovely" by Raymond Chandler and made a few clever twists and then added magic.  (Though a very well thought out magic system.)  In both books the detective starts investigating a murder, there is a criminal who is not the murderer but for his own reasons doesn't want the investigator getting involved, there is another murder of someone who knows too much and in both novels it's a women.  I almost forgot the best part; in both books the investigator is involved in a separate investigation, looking for a missing person, but in the end both investigations are really the same investigation.

So all the conventions Jim used to create and animate Harry can't just go away.  They remain integral to who Harry is and how he relates to women in general.  Now if you see the same or very similar descriptions of women in the Alera series or in the newer Cinder Spires book (books whenever we get more), then the criticism leveled against Jim's writing is a much more valid argument. 

Of course, it might be argued that those two series are modeled after genres with a particular take on the world and the people in it.  For example, Jim has said the Cinder Spires is basically Horatio Hornblower sailing ship adventure with a steam punk twist.  I've never read any Horatio Hornblower books so I can't go any further than that.  The beta readers who have read samples of other types of novels Jim has played around with; like a hard scifi X-Files on the moon concept that his beta readers weren't that hot on, might have better insight into this question.       
« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 02:28:48 AM by KurtinStGeorge »
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Offline Mira

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2018, 02:58:20 AM »
Yes, I always quite the same part of Harry Potter, when Hermione explains Ron and Harry what Cho is feeling. It was obvious for me and for Hermione, but Ron and Harry said that was impossible, it was too complex.

That said, I don't believe in masculine and feminine qualities.

Yet, Hermione ended up marrying Ron....

Offline Mira

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2018, 03:02:40 AM »
The only thing I can add to this conversation is the Dresden Files, and particularly the first three books, are very much influenced by 1940's detective fiction.  In Storm Front, Jim lifted the basic plot structure of "Farewell My Lovely" by Raymond Chandler and made a few clever twists and then added magic.  (Though a very well thought out magic system.)  In both books the detective starts investigating a murder, there is a criminal who is not the murderer but for his own reasons doesn't want the investigator getting involved, there is another murder of someone who knows too much and in both novels it's a women.  I almost forgot the best part; in both books the investigator is involved in a separate investigation, looking for a missing person, but in the end both investigations are really the same investigation.

So all the conventions Jim used to create and animate Harry can't just go away.  They remain integral to who Harry is and how he relates to women in general.  Now if you see the same or very similar descriptions of women in the Alera series or in the newer Cinder Spires book (books whenever we get more), then the criticism leveled against Jim's writing is a much more valid argument. 

Of course, it might be argued that those two series are modeled after genres with a particular take on the world and the people in it.  For example, Jim has said the Cinder Spires is basically Horatio Hornblower sailing ship adventure with a steam punk twist.  I've never read any Horatio Hornblower books so I can't go any further than that.  The beta readers who have read samples of other types of novels Jim has played around with; like a hard scifi X-Files on the moon concept that his beta readers weren't that hot on, might have better insight into this question.     

I have read the Hornblower series but not Cinder Spires...   So I cannot compare...

Offline Dina

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2018, 03:03:33 AM »
About Ron, yes, but that is not a problem, because there are no men more complex. At least that is the simplistic point of view  :)

BTW, I didn't like Hermione and Ron as a couple. And apparently JKR herself admitted it was a mistake.
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Offline knnn

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2018, 03:09:30 AM »
The interesting thing for me is that the person writing the files is Harry. So his descriptions of the women fit perfectly well with his personality. But Aftermath was quite well written from a female PoV (IMHO). I don't remember Thomas descriptions in Backup, but I suspect he is not as...teen ager as Harry is.

Interesting.

I have never been sure about Murphy's internal dialogue in Aftermath.  I always thought she came off as a little petty.

Examples:

Quote from: Aftermath
If I remembered right, most guys who looked at Andi wouldn’t be entirely certain whether or not she had lips afterward. But she’d probably have back problems at some point.

Quote from: Aftermath
Two other people stood on the stage, slightly behind him, testimony to his ability to lead. The first was a woman, a blond amazon more than six feet tall in a grey business suit.  She had the legs that had been cruelly denied me at birth, the bitch.

In both cases, this is Murphy feeling more than unkindly at other women apparently simply because they appear in her mind to look better than her (male-y tropes as a well I believe -- bigger breasts and longer legs).   Not to mention that I've never called anyone a "bitch" in my life out loud or mentally.   But maybe I'm just too sensitive that way.


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Offline Dina

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2018, 03:42:26 AM »
Well, Murphy is allowed to be petty. Women are allowed to be petty. And I won't say more because I don't want to be criticized.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2018, 03:55:15 AM »
I don't think it's really petty, but I guess it's up to interpretation.  I could see where someone could read that and think she was being hauty, a la Housewives of Never-Never.  But I read it as being said with more of an amused sardonic tone.  Like Sam and Dean Winchester calling each other jerk and bitch. 

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2018, 03:57:14 AM »
Murphy's also spent most of her life in a male-dominated field and, as she might put it, speaks Martian. It would not be at all surprising to me if the attitudes she was used to dealing with day-to-day affected her thinking as well.

A Murphy who'd been a florist her whole life might not be saying the same things about those women.
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Offline Dina

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2018, 03:59:32 AM »
Why? Because florist are like delicate flowers?  ;D

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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2018, 04:00:48 AM »
The thing about Harry is that almost all males really do think like that...sort of.  Where Harry is a little different is that he's more conscious of it.  A guy seeing a woman he finds attractive is noticing all the same stuff Harry is, as a rule, but one you're past early teens or so it's usually so much a part of the daily background of thought that it's just...background, unless he finds her exceptionally appealing, or he's got semi-immediate plans involving her, or she's coming on to him or he thinks she is.  Otherwise, those thoughts are going in parallel with other thoughts as well.  Harry, though, tends to dwell on it more specifically, more consciously.

As Kurtin St. George observed, that particular trait is common to the classic/stereotypical noir detective archetype, too.

The comparison to Thomas is interesting, because it's actually natural for Thomas to be different.  For one thing, he has to guard his thoughts more carefully to keep his Appetite under control, and for another, it's crude but true to say that Thomas can have almost any woman he wants, if he decides he wants her.  The women who will say 'no' to him and stick to it are the exception, and he knows that, too.

So he's less motivated by 'what he can't have'.  His frustrations are basically different than Harry's.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2018, 04:07:05 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2018, 04:05:10 AM »
Interesting.

I have never been sure about Murphy's internal dialogue in Aftermath.  I always thought she came off as a little petty.

Examples:

In both cases, this is Murphy feeling more than unkindly at other women apparently simply because they appear in her mind to look better than her (male-y tropes as a well I believe -- bigger breasts and longer legs). 

But she's not lusting after the breasts and legs, as such, like Harry would be.  She's jealous (at least a bit, and probably rueful/sardonic as much as angry) of the power and attention they give the women who have them.  The male equivalent would be Harry being jealous of a rich, handsome quarterback or movie star with women throwing themselves at him, or being jealous of Thomas' looks, if he didn't know the hidden cost.


Offline LordDresden2

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Re: The way male writers describe women
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2018, 04:14:44 AM »
I don't think it's really petty, but I guess it's up to interpretation.  I could see where someone could read that and think she was being hauty, a la Housewives of Never-Never.  But I read it as being said with more of an amused sardonic tone.  Like Sam and Dean Winchester calling each other jerk and bitch.

And note that she didn't say it out loud.  Lots of people think lots of things best not said, it's a human trait.