Author Topic: Previous Warden theory  (Read 12024 times)

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2018, 01:39:38 AM »
Nah, Id day it's just solidified into a Maybe.  There was always that one line in TC that seemed to Juxtapose the two, making it reasonable (if not my own preferred theory) that she was at some point tapped to be the Warden somewhere,   

When I read that line in Ebenezar's journal, I think it can reasonably be read in two ways.  That is, Eb could have been expressing one of two thoughts in those words.

Eb, when writing this, has just learned that Harry has gone and made himself THE Warden.  This is a freaking Big Deal, Harry himself doesn't yet understand how big, of course, he doesn't even know that's what he's done.

Eb writes that he can't think of anybody he'd trust more to handle that position than Harry...and then adds that he thought the same about Margaret.  But what exactly did he mean?  It might mean that Eb (and other high-ups in the Council) had in mind Margaret to become THE Warden eventually, had faith in her for the role, and then Margaret went and turned into Margaret and Did The Stuff She Did.

Or, it could simply mean that Eb has just expressed his great faith in Harry, but muses that he once had great faith in Margaret, too, and she proved him wrong.  It could be a general sort of thought, not specific to THE Wardenship.

As I said, either interpretation is reasonable.  You can make a circumstantial case for either.

For ex, there was the infamous Dinner Party that Margaret threw with Lord Raith, Aramina, Eb, etc.  Eb says she suggested Something there, something that made Eb blow up, not just refuse but tell her she was off the beam for wanting it, and storm out.

Well, it might be that she suggested letting someone or something out of Demonreach once she eventually became the Warden, and Eb didn't take it well.  But it's just as probable that she suggested something totally different, unrelated to Demonreach.  We don't even know if she knew anything about Demonreach, back then.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2018, 01:45:04 AM »
Kemmler was a huge evil threat, said to have many truly dark allies. Some of which would be the type to be confined in the well. So it makes sense for the warden to be involved in the conflict.

But unless it went down on the island, the Warden probably wouldn't be all that relevant (unless he was involved in some other capacity).  Remember, JB has told us that the power of Alfred depends on your GPS coordinates.  If you're on the island, THE Warden has serious power, the kind of power even Mab or Titania can't take lightly. Off the island, Alfred is powerless and the Warden is just this Wizard.

(One of the ironic things about the showdown in Turn Coat, where Harry dropping a bluff challenge to the Senior Council, is that he picked probably the one place in the world where he might just be able to back it up, and had no idea that's what he had done.)

So unless the final throwdown with Kemmler happened on the island, I'm not sure the Warden would be directly involved.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2018, 04:01:54 PM »
LordDresden2,

I'm of the opinion that the dinner party was to get the Vampires and the Wouncil to become allies and take over the Outer Gates.  We know she traveled the Ways extensively.  That would suggest that she knew about the Outer Gates, and who was defending it.  I think she saw the need for shock troops (that the Vampires could produce fairly quickly) and the need for Magic (which the Wouncil would bring to the table.)

I think Eb KNEW that the Vampires couldn't be trusted, and didn't want to be part of the scheme.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2018, 04:07:58 PM »
But unless it went down on the island, the Warden probably wouldn't be all that relevant (unless he was involved in some other capacity).  Remember, JB has told us that the power of Alfred depends on your GPS coordinates.  If you're on the island, THE Warden has serious power, the kind of power even Mab or Titania can't take lightly. Off the island, Alfred is powerless and the Warden is just this Wizard.

(One of the ironic things about the showdown in Turn Coat, where Harry dropping a bluff challenge to the Senior Council, is that he picked probably the one place in the world where he might just be able to back it up, and had no idea that's what he had done.)

So unless the final throwdown with Kemmler happened on the island, I'm not sure the Warden would be directly involved.
Just a devil's advocate statement here but The Warden is likely the only thing in existence that Alfred cares about off his own island.  So even if Demonreach and/or the office of the Warden arent directly involved, Id call it possible that he might still hold a grudge against those responsible for it (though noticing things like Mab would still be easier than your more short-lived things). 

LordDresden2,

I'm of the opinion that the dinner party was to get the Vampires and the Wouncil to become allies and take over the Outer Gates.  We know she traveled the Ways extensively.  That would suggest that she knew about the Outer Gates, and who was defending it.  I think she saw the need for shock troops (that the Vampires could produce fairly quickly) and the need for Magic (which the Wouncil would bring to the table.)

I think Eb KNEW that the Vampires couldn't be trusted, and didn't want to be part of the scheme.
Its certainly possible.  One hitch in that particular version of the plan is that Vampires arent all that great at mass-reproduction unless you already have a viable supply of living mortal food to convert.  I suspect one reason the Fae do it currently is that they have evolved heightened breeding drives and mechanisms to make them more viable. 
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Offline WereElephant

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2018, 05:00:05 PM »
My personal theory is that Kemmler was the previous WARDEN.

When the Council was taking Kemmler down, one of the times, probably the last one, is when Rashid "Focused the Tank" and pissed DR off, by distracting DR from protecting his WARDEN.

Absent any other evidence, I'm sticking with that one.

Don't think it could be the last time, per this WoJ: http://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-other-bad-guys-beyond-the-outer-gates-demonreach/

Quote
We were told in Dead Beat that Kemmler was finally killed in 1961. Looking online, I found that the Tsar Bomb (largest man-made explosion ever) was detonated on Halloween eve, 1961. Is this a coincidence, a coverup by the various authorities of the showdown that took place, or the direct result of Kemmler’s Death Curse?
You read too much. :)

This suggests that Kemmler's last stand was nowhere near Demonreach.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2018, 06:36:59 PM »
That's not how I read that.

Differing takes.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2018, 07:11:51 PM »
That's not how I read that.

Differing takes.
Same, I took that as the opposite of confirmation.
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Offline WereElephant

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2018, 07:17:22 PM »
I could see it being completely coincidental, except that it happened on Halloween, the one day of the year Kemmler's Darkhallow is supposed to be performed.

Offline Talby16

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2018, 08:38:02 PM »
Kemmler was a huge evil threat, said to have many truly dark allies. Some of which would be the type to be confined in the well. So it makes sense for the warden to be involved in the conflict.

Only if he was trying to break dark allies out of the jail or release powerful beings to consume in a darkhallow. That would lead to The Warden's involvement to prevent the occurrence either on or off the island. However, as others have alluded to Alfred is pretty powerless off the island. The Warden may have been involved in the take down of Kemmler as a white council wizard or in his official capacity, but Alfred would only be involved if the incident happened on DR.

I'm of the opinion that the dinner party was to get the Vampires and the Wouncil to become allies and take over the Outer Gates.  We know she traveled the Ways extensively.  That would suggest that she knew about the Outer Gates, and who was defending it.  I think she saw the need for shock troops (that the Vampires could produce fairly quickly) and the need for Magic (which the Wouncil would bring to the table.)

I think Eb KNEW that the Vampires couldn't be trusted, and didn't want to be part of the scheme.
I'm not sold on the idea of a proposed plan for the WC and vampires to join forces to take the outer gates. So far we have not seen any benefit to protecting the Outer Gates other than having a Purpose, greater prestige, and the ability to drag the world into oblivion. Doesn't seem to be much gain for protecting the Outer Gates (unless you argue Nemesis was working a scheme here). There is also the issue of reproduction of troops as that Quantus brought up.

I do agree however that whatever the plan was it involved joining forces with the vampires and was enough to royally piss off Eb.

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2018, 08:57:20 PM »
Sure the warden would be most powerful on the island, but I could see him having skills and abilities off the island. The gatekeeper mans the outer gates, but he is an epic wizard away from them.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2018, 09:07:33 PM »
I could see it being completely coincidental, except that it happened on Halloween, the one day of the year Kemmler's Darkhallow is supposed to be performed.
Halloween Eve, ie. October 30th, so one day too early for that to be a factor. 
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Offline jonas

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2018, 09:54:44 PM »
Halloween Eve, ie. October 30th, so one day too early for that to be a factor.
I mean, they were stopping him from completing a Hallow according to Luccio in WW1, and I imagine he kept trying to accend.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 10:18:55 AM »
I mean, they were stopping him from completing a Hallow according to Luccio in WW1, and I imagine he kept trying to accend.
Excellent Point
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2018, 04:54:12 PM »
What makes you think the Vampires can't reproduce quickly.  For Blampires, it only takes one vamp to turn a whole bunch of people.  For Rampires, it takes two people (the new Rampire and their victum).  The Whites are the only ones we've seen that reproduce slowly.  And we don't know about the other courts, though I'll admit that I doubt they reproduce very quickly.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Previous Warden theory
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2018, 04:59:54 PM »
What makes you think the Vampires can't reproduce quickly.  For Blampires, it only takes one vamp to turn a whole bunch of people.  For Rampires, it takes two people (the new Rampire and their victum).  The Whites are the only ones we've seen that reproduce slowly.  And we don't know about the other courts, though I'll admit that I doubt they reproduce very quickly.
They all still need People.  Which means they are all still limited by the overall rate of Human Reproduction (slower than Fae by design), with the added inefficiency of also needing to hold that resource back to provide food and/or Power.  Im thinking of this in terms of the long-term logistics of fighting a never-ending battle with the Outsiders. 

Separately (because this is an interesting line of thought) int he specific case of Blampires we have it by WOJ that they gain power via straight-up kill count.  The the question becomes "Which is a better weapon: 100 level 1 Blampires or 1 blampire powered up by killing the other 99?
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