Nick and the Cup (New Theory?)

[jonas]

Hey. Let him go there with the Christ/AntiChrist and see if I buy any more of his books.  There are other ways to get the books rather than buy them.

Stop reading now ;o Harry is the Anti-Christ along with a few others whom are sharing the shadow form. Want one tiny, teeny, bitty point of proof beyond all the other stuff I've mentioned?(plus theorized at by others)
Slouching: a lazy, drooping posture or movement.

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
     Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

DR 'slouches' now doesn't he lol? The limp is inherited from there.
If you really feel that strongly about it Rai, I warn you now,  you will be highly disappointed... It's not like Jim was gonna mesh all the apocali together and not put the AC in the Christian portion... Not really sure why you have such a problem with that one particular aspect anyway, did Damian and the Omen offend you so?

[raidem]

The Anti-Christ is not a good symbol to use. 

I grew up in a Christian church.  Around 19, after addiction to computer games and flunking out at UF due to it, I had some personal issues that I informed my family about.  Overlayed on this time period, I had psychotic symptoms in which I believed I was the AntiChrist (w/ a horn growing out of a bump on my head) because I no longer believed in my faith.  Making matters worse during this time, I took nyquil (1999) because I was having issues with sleep, and for many years after had problems with speech, emotion, cognition etc.  I believe there were seizures underlying some of this.  So back to the Antichrist, for me, it is a disgusting idea because I had a paranoid delusion based off of it.  This is why it is so personal to me. 

Side note: After many years later, I finally think I figured out why I attached horn to this peculiar thought.  At the age of 15, in a swim meet I jumped and my goggles got flooded with water.  In one flip turn, I ended up hitting the step of the wall with my head which is most likely where the bump on my forehead originated.  So later on down the road in my psychotic symptoms I correlated the bump with a horn. 

So, even now I have to take many medications to deal with sleep, psychosis, bipolar disorder, possible seizure activity, etc.

Now on the amusing side:
Jonas: Harry can't be the antichrist; I already am .

[Snark Knight]

Coming from the perspective that Nick want's to "save the world", and he thinks that there is soon going to be a changing of the guard at the Outer Gates, I'm wondering if he didn't want the cup, and the other artifacts to aid him in taking over that charge.

I don't think he wants to just uphold the status quo of defending the gates. I think his long game is lasting destruction of the Outsiders, but he's planning on scorched-earth (probably literally) methods to get there.

[Rasins]

Raidem,

Thank GOD!!  Now we know who it is ...

What are you doing Tuesday?  LOL

[Lost Merlin]

Any chance that Nic wanted the items not to summon the Anti Christ or the Devil, but to summon the other Fallen from hell?

[groinkick]

Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy.  Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being.  Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.

[Kindler]

Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy.  Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being.  Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.

That's an interesting possibility. Anduriel likely views its Coin as a prison, and could do much more if it wasn't bound to it. Maybe the Knife could be used in some kind of separation ritual, while the Grail was to keep Nicodemus alive after the separation; that feels like the kind of pact the two of them would make.

[Quantus]

That's an interesting possibility. Anduriel likely views its Coin as a prison, and could do much more if it wasn't bound to it. Maybe the Knife could be used in some kind of separation ritual, while the Grail was to keep Nicodemus alive after the separation; that feels like the kind of pact the two of them would make.

I dont think it would be possible given that the coins are apparently part of some Universal Free Will balancing act with the Swords.  But if anything would allow them to up-end that whole scheme (for better or worse) I would be able to accept re-purposing the same Artifacts of Power that (theoretically) created the Christ in the first place. 

[raidem]

Anduriel was locked in a Coin because he was considered untrustworthy.  Perhaps Anduriel, and Nicodemus want the power to release Anduriel from the Coin, and to merge into some sort of super being.  Or Anduriel will be freed and Nicodemus will be super powerful without the need of a Coin.

Actually i had this thought long ago, well at least the part about freeing Anduriel from the coin.  I even speculated wondering if Mac or Nick Christian was Anduriel after some time cycle had already occurred.  That said, I also wondered if Nick Christian was this Nicodemus too.  Going further out on a limb, I wondered if Nick Christian=Nicodemus=Malcolm Dresden.

It's pretty convoluted but with time cycles, redemption, second chances via balancing cheats I had wondered if it could be possible.

[Kindler]

I dont think it would be possible given that the coins are apparently part of some Universal Free Will balancing act with the Swords.  But if anything would allow them to up-end that whole scheme (for better or worse) I would be able to accept re-purposing the same Artifacts of Power that (theoretically) created the Christ in the first place.

My understanding of the Blackened Denarii is that it was Lucifer who bound thirty of his most troublesome employees to them to keep them out of contention for overthrowing the established order. These were those who had both ambition and enough power to make trouble for Lucy, especially working together. If anything could cancel out Lucy's binding, I'd imagine it would be something tied to the Anti-Lucifer. Not really sure the balance between thirty Coins and three Swords comes into play; just because something exists currently in balance doesn't mean that that balance can't be upturned—that was the crux of the plot in Summer Knight. It'd certainly be disastrous, but that's sort of the goal of Nic's plot.

And it'd also be cool to see what The White God does to counter such a move; I'd imagine Anduriel and Uriel wouldn't get along particularly well.

[Quantus]

My understanding of the Blackened Denarii is that it was Lucifer who bound thirty of his most troublesome employees to them to keep them out of contention for overthrowing the established order. These were those who had both ambition and enough power to make trouble for Lucy, especially working together. If anything could cancel out Lucy's binding, I'd imagine it would be something tied to the Anti-Lucifer. Not really sure the balance between thirty Coins and three Swords comes into play; just because something exists currently in balance doesn't mean that that balance can't be upturned—that was the crux of the plot in Summer Knight. It'd certainly be disastrous, but that's sort of the goal of Nic's plot.

And it'd also be cool to see what The White God does to counter such a move; I'd imagine Anduriel and Uriel wouldn't get along particularly well.

Those were the reasons Lucifer Chose those Thirty particular Fallen to trap in coins and insodoing release them on Earth (in a limited fashoin) but hte Coins themselves are part of a larger cosmic Balance that does not seem within Luficer's power (at least not alone).  In other words, the Balance and/or the Capital 'S' Significant event that occurred surrounding the Crucifixion is what created/crystallized the Swords and the Coins themselves, even though each side was/is apparently free to assign them however they see fit. 

[Rasins]

I wonder if the aim of the Knight's of the Blackend Denarius want the destruction of the Swords, in part, because if they actually destroy one, 10 of them get released.

[Lost Merlin]

I would question if any of the Denarius want to be freed from the coins?  For the most part it seems that the fallen in the coins have it much better then the fallen in hell.  From our perspective anyway. 

[Rasins]

I would question if any of the Denarius want to be freed from the coins?  For the most part it seems that the fallen in the coins have it much better then the fallen in hell.  From our perspective anyway.

Unless they are released from the coins here on earth. 

If they are released back in to hell, I agree, but we don't know.

[Quantus]

Unless they are released from the coins here on earth. 

If they are released back in to hell, I agree, but we don't know.

We have WOJ that releasing them in the sense of breaking open the coins and letting them out, they'd be able to use their full un-restricted power on earth, but that it would destroy all kinds of cosmic balances. 

On the other hand, if Lucufer put them in the coins it might be possible for him to Replace them, which would put them back in Hell and entirely prevented from interacting with Earth the way the rest of the Fallen are.  Which seems to mean they can Choose to Act, but doing so provokes a response from Heaven, as was the case when Luficer intervened in SmF.