TT Harry in Proven Guilty

[Kindler]

No.  Nothing to support it. Only Mavra's absence.
I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own.  But it's possible.

Honestly, I got the sense that the Darkhallow itself was pretty simple. Grevane is even shocked at how straightforward it is. I think it's more a matter of power and timing than an intricate rite. You're essentially just, like, eating ghosts. Harry's already done that once. Twice, actually, if you count Ghost Story. I mean, Corpsetaker was able to pull off a miniature one without a body. Unless I'm totally misinterpreting things or forgot something.

[Snark Knight]

I doubt Bonnie's going to be helpful, and I doubt he remembers the Word verbatim on his own.  But it's possible.

The only parts I'd really bet on him retaining without Lash to help him are how to raise Sue (because he's actually done it), and the Darkhallow and whatever Achilles' heel to the Black Court he threatened Mavra with having read from the Word before turning it over (because he's contemplated needing to use those).

And I'm not even really certain about the Black Court one, since he didn't use it when it would have come in handy against that Master who showed up in It's My Birthday Too. The Doylist reason was obviously that using necromancy again would have been crossing a line that doesn't fit with the light tone of a short story, but unless it's illegal because blampires are former humans, I don't see the Watsonian reason.

[Griffyn612]

Honestly, I got the sense that the Darkhallow itself was pretty simple. Grevane is even shocked at how straightforward it is. I think it's more a matter of power and timing than an intricate rite. You're essentially just, like, eating ghosts. Harry's already done that once. Twice, actually, if you count Ghost Story. I mean, Corpsetaker was able to pull off a miniature one without a body. Unless I'm totally misinterpreting things or forgot something.

The only parts I'd really bet on him retaining without Lash to help him are how to raise Sue (because he's actually done it), and the Darkhallow and whatever Achilles' heel to the Black Court he threatened Mavra with having read from the Word before turning it over (because he's contemplated needing to use those).

And I'm not even really certain about the Black Court one, since he didn't use it when it would have come in handy against that Master who showed up in It's My Birthday Too. The Doylist reason was obviously that using necromancy again would have been crossing a line that doesn't fit with the light tone of a short story, but unless it's illegal because blampires are former humans, I don't see the Watsonian reason.

I think the Darkhallow was only part of the Word.  The rest, that he didn't cast and only skimmed, might have been more difficult.

Of course, that's assuming he didn't make a copy between recovering it and handing it over.  JB could totally pull a surprise card and say that one of the things saved in his duffel bag was a copy of the Word.  Although I doubt it.

[beetnemesis]

A bit that's forgotten by everyone (EXCEPT ME, I WILL BE VINDICATED) is the Lost Book in Small Favor.

In SF, Harry goes looking for a book on the Fae in his office, looking for information on gruffs. But... it's not there. Instead, there's a book of Calvin and Hobbes comics.


This is insane. Harry A) is a book nerd B) Has a well-organized library C) Has Bob to remember where all his books are and D) Has such a small social circle that no one could have easily taken it.

Whoever the time traveler is, "borrowed" that book. Harry makes the most sense by far.

____

Also- I strongly, STRONGLY doubt that Mab fixed Little Chicago without any time travel schenanigans going on. Not only would that be an incredibly unsatisfying conclusion, it also makes no sense that it would have been a secret for so long.

Not to say that Mab doesn't keep secrets- just that this one would be pointless and boring.

[raidem]

One point against Future Harry himself originally fixing Little Chicago is the conservation of history argument.  It takes tons of power to go back in time and change significant things in one's own past.  I think that pretty much precludes Harry from being the Original Fixer. Now, I could see that there was an Original Fixer and then in a different iteration Future Harry steps in place of this person.
I could also see a different Parallel Harry assisting our Harry out by fixing Little Chicago.  This sidesteps the conservation of history argument.  It also can sidestep the 'time travel' problem too.  In Amber, different parallel worlds don't all have the same clock.  So, there can be a parallel world where Harry" is quite advanced and he helps out this other parallel Harry (ourHarry).  So, there is no time travel, nor is there conservation of history problems.  This can be what is occurring with Cowl.  Cowl arises from a parallel world that ticks faster than ours.  He cross over into ours to mess things up.  It just appears to be time travel when it really isn't.

<<If Shadows (Parallel Worlds) tick at different rates and travel between these are possible, then what appears to be time travel in some instances isn't exactly.>>
*I still argue that traversing between parallel worlds and traversing time can be fashioned into a higher function where there is a temporal component(s) to both.

One other thing to note.  We should keep track of Harry's door.  The difficulty people have in opening it.  The carpet that gets hung up at the door.  The door swelling.  Etc.  It's a bit weird that Jim spends so much time focusing on it.  It might end up being a clue.

I know Murphy doesn't have as much trouble opening the door as Harry does.

[Griffyn612]

One point against Future Harry himself originally fixing Little Chicago is the conservation of history argument.  It takes tons of power to go back in time and change significant things in one's own past.  I think that pretty much precludes Harry from being the Original Fixer. Now, I could see that there was an Original Fixer and then in a different iteration Future Harry steps in place of this person.
I could also see a different Parallel Harry assisting our Harry out by fixing Little Chicago.  This sidesteps the conservation of history argument.  It also can sidestep the 'time travel' problem too.  In Amber, different parallel worlds don't all have the same clock.  So, there can be a parallel world where Harry" is quite advanced and he helps out this other parallel Harry (ourHarry).  So, there is no time travel, nor is there conservation of history problems.  This can be what is occurring with Cowl.  Cowl arises from a parallel world that ticks faster than ours.  He cross over into ours to mess things up.  It just appears to be time travel when it really isn't.

<<If Shadows (Parallel Worlds) tick at different rates and travel between these are possible, then what appears to be time travel in some instances isn't exactly.>>
*I still argue that traversing between parallel worlds and traversing time can be fashioned into a higher function where there is a temporal component(s) to both.

One other thing to note.  We should keep track of Harry's door.  The difficulty people have in opening it.  The carpet that gets hung up at the door.  The door swelling.  Etc.  It's a bit weird that Jim spends so much time focusing on it.  It might end up being a clue.

I know Murphy doesn't have as much trouble opening the door as Harry does.

It's not a concern if it's a stable time loop between the two points in time that existed both times the first time.

It's basically the same method that Merlin used to create Demonreach.  Five times simultaneously at once.  Only in Harry's case, the bridge (probably Demonreach) will exist in both times simultaneously, which will allow him to walk out into the world in the time of PG the first time it happened.

Ergo, no need for more complicated first-fixer.

As for power and knowledge of time travel, he's got plenty of each between Alfred, Mab, Vadderung, and Gatekeeper.  I'm sure Uriel could help with the non-linear bits as required.

[raidem]

Yeah, I had no problem with him doing time travel; the problem was with time travel plus changing his own past significantly.  Your example though does sound reasonable.  I still prefer someone other than Harry in the same timeline as he to do it.  I'd consider a Harry in a Parallel world that ticks faster than ours being a possibility.  He didn't have the problem of Little Chicago blowing up in his face, so he helped out our Harry.  This would only be if Harry was the person who did it.

If it was Mab or someone else on her level like Vadderung, etc then the conservation of history, time travel concerns are mute.

As to Merlin and Demonreach, Merlin wasn't changing his 'own' past.  If Harry is the Fixer and he is Time Traveling to do so, then he is changing his own past which is a distinction that didn't occur with Merlin and Demonreach.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, I had no problem with him doing time travel; the problem was with time travel plus changing his own past significantly.  Your example though does sound reasonable.  I still prefer someone other than Harry in the same timeline as he to do it.  I'd consider a Harry in a Parallel world that ticks faster than ours being a possibility.  He didn't have the problem of Little Chicago blowing up in his face, so he helped out our Harry.  This would only be if Harry was the person who did it.

If it was Mab or someone else on her level like Vadderung, etc then the conservation of history, time travel concerns are mute.

As to Merlin and Demonreach, Merlin wasn't changing his 'own' past.  If Harry is the Fixer and he is Time Traveling to do so, then he is changing his own past which is a distinction that didn't occur with Merlin and Demonreach.

We don't know the times Merlin completed the spell.  It might have been across the entire existence of Earth, or it could have been within his lifetime.  He could very well have changed his own destiny/history and we wouldn't have a way of knowing.

Of course, the big difference between the two would be that Merlin was working during the time merges, whereas Harry wouldn't be. 

[raidem]

How about this option. Merlin from 5 (or more) parallel realities participated in the same event. They were linked in purpose and synced w/ some merged mind.

Think of what Harry could do with the other Harry's he encounters in Skin Game in his dreamscape with Molly.  If Harry could work with them, together they could each do separate jobs, in different times, all at once.  If Harry and they are able to learn to time travel. They could each go to different times to do a similar thing that Merlin was able to do.

It definitely makes things more understandable if the working is distributed and coordinated with his 'Shadow' selves.

[YoungestGruff]

Possible counterpoint: Time Travel seems to be treated different than parallel universes. See Harry's comment in Proven Guilty; roughly "We're all time travelers. We just pulled into the passing lane for a while." (Granted, that's a flippant Harry comment. But still.)

More to the point: when Merlin did assemble Demonreach, Bob played it as a video of him weaving things simultaneously. If it was a bunch of alt!Merlins working in tandem, that's the sort of thing that Bob could easily explain, even to the idiot monkey that is Harry. Given that Merlin creating time loops like nobody's business could set up Harry doing the same thing. . . Something something QED.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mirror Mirror will have something to say about this. Or at least heavily imply.

[Griffyn612]

Yeah, I'm sticking with the silly putty theory for now.  Parallel Merlins working in tandem somehow seems like a longer stretch than a single Merlin doing it five times at once.

[Kindler]

If Harry goes back in time to fix Little Chicago, he isn't changing his own past. It's a case of a stable time loop in which the current timeline includes Harry's trip that fixes it. It's the You Already Changed the Past trope; from Harry's perspective, he's ensuring that the events in Proven Guilty play out the way they did for him during the events in Proven Guilty.

About the missing Fae book: Good catch, but it doesn't seem like a book is missing. From Small Favor, page 24 on Nook:

"I've seen these goat guys, or read about them before," I said. "Or at least something close to them. Where did I put those texts on the near reaches of the Nevernever?"
"North wall, green plastic box under the workbench," Bob provided immediately.
"Thanks," I said. I dragged out the heavy plastic storage box. It was filled with books, most of them leather-bound, handwritten treatises on various supernatural topics. Except for one book that was a compilation of "Calvin and Hobbes" comic strips. How had that gotten in there?

To me, the exchange indicates that Dresden knows there's an entry in one of the books, but not which one, so he's doing broad research with things that are available to him. The outlier is the Calvin and Hobbes book. Harry eventually finds the entry on the eighth one, so it doesn't look like anything is missing.

[WereElephant]

How about this option. Merlin from 5 (or more) parallel realities participated in the same event. They were linked in purpose and synced w/ some merged mind.

Think of what Harry could do with the other Harry's he encounters in Skin Game in his dreamscape with Molly.  If Harry could work with them, together they could each do separate jobs, in different times, all at once.  If Harry and they are able to learn to time travel. They could each go to different times to do a similar thing that Merlin was able to do.

It definitely makes things more understandable if the working is distributed and coordinated with his 'Shadow' selves.

Modification: One Merlin from our timeline, travels to 5 different parallel universes, at a different time in each. Effectively, this makes Demonreach a 5D Pentagram, able to keep in entities that could travel in time as well as parallel dimensions.

[raidem]

That works too.  It bypasses him affecting 5points in a single timeline.  It's far more reasonable to include parallel worlds in its creation since many of these entries do span across multiple realities and times.

It then means that to undo demonreach, demonreach needs to be destroyed in multiple parallel realities and/Or times.

[Griffyn612]

Modification: One Merlin from our timeline, travels to 5 different parallel universes, at a different time in each. Effectively, this makes Demonreach a 5D Pentagram, able to keep in entities that could travel in time as well as parallel dimensions.

Except he did all five at once.  What you propose would be five builds at five different times.