Altered Carbon - Could Netflix do Dresden?

[raidem]

By the end of the season 1, I was pretty much done with the series.  Too much violence, violence against kids, women, men, nudity, sexual violence, blood, murders, etc.  I'm glad it wrapped up and probably won't follow it much more.

I was wondering about another good show I should watch that has time travel and/or that is similar in appeal to Dresden Files.  I watched Continuum and damn was that a great series.

[Griffyn612]

By the end of the season 1, I was pretty much done with the series.  Too much violence, violence against kids, women, men, nudity, sexual violence, blood, murders, etc.  I'm glad it wrapped up and probably won't follow it much more.

I was wondering about another good show I should watch that has time travel and/or that is similar in appeal to Dresden Files.  I watched Continuum and damn was that a great series.

Have you watched Travelers on Netflix?

But an example of them cancelling a popular high-budget sci-fi/mystery show was Sense8. Hard to know what the viewer numbers were like (as Netflix guards them strongly) but based on the size of the fanbase - it came down to the fact they wanted more money to dish around (unless you believe the conspiracy theories around Netflix's new corporate direction is to be more family friendly - I point to Altered Carbon to dispute that claim). Don't get me wrong, few other networks could do DF right - maybe Amazon or Starz, at a pinch HBO - but I think I would rather them streamline it a little while maintaining the core of the DF rather than losing the series half-way.

Indeed, but they did close off the ending a bit abruptly (new lead actor, bold but dangerous) and the main murder mystery tends to get in the way of all the other interesting mysteries - I really didn't care much about who or why Laurens Bancroft was killed in the end, I mostly was more interested in the Envoys, AI and dark stuff in the background. And the vague alien references.

The only IRL reviews I heard for S8 all said it started bad but got better.  My guess is that there was a decent fanbase that stuck through the rough beginning, but not enough to justify the budget. (No idea myself, I haven't watched it and don't know anything about the quality/cost)

[Quantus]

As I understand it Sens8 got canned because it had a disproportionately huge budget because it needed to be filmed in multiple exotic locations.  Any show that can get away with Soundstage & Green-screen is going to have a leg up. 

I see it as similar network math as what killed Almost Human: it had all the same costs of the Procedural Cop Shows it was competing against, but on top of that it also needed a budget for both practical and CGI effects. 

[Rasins]

I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%.  That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors.  I like that.

But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way?  (I really don't know).

[Quantus]

I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%.  That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors.  I like that.

But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way?  (I really don't know).

HBO and Starz yes, Hulu...sometimes? You have to pay extra to opt out of their advertising, but at the end of the day they are a distributor of others' contents a lot more than they are an original maker, so they still need to keep their Network Partners happy.  Especially since their business model is more dependent on their partnerships to air current seasons of Network TV

[Kindler]

I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%.  That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors.  I like that.

But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way?  (I really don't know).

Sort of. HBO, Starz, and Showtime aren't beholden to advertisers, but their business model is different; they string out content across several months to make sure people stay subscribed. I know people who subscribe to HBO during Game of Thrones, then cancel it.

For a long time, those subscriptions HAD to be bundled with a cable provider. Those premium cable packages were far, far and away more expensive than what many are willing to pay. In the past couple of years, HBO got smart and offered their separate, HBO Go app that doesn't require a movie package, which is cool, though if you DO have a premium package, that's included in your subscription (which I like). Cord cutting is hitting the premium channels hardest.

Netflix's business model is focused entirely on bombarding their users with so much content that it becomes an essential part of their life. Do you know how frustrating it is to see an episode of a show after it's been on for a season or two, and not be able to go back to the beginning and watch it start to finish? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't watch shows piecemeal; I start at the start, and finish at the finish. If I see something I like, I go back to the start and catch up. Channels like Adult Swim or FX don't have their entire catalog available for viewing whenever you want; you have to wait a few months for the missing episodes to show up in circulation. For example, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia may have a total of ten episodes from random seasons available on demand. If you want to see the others, you have to buy the DVD/digital copy, pirate it, or, if you're lucky enough for it to be available, watch it on Netflix. Netflix decided to change the rules about limiting available content; they just made it all available, all the time. Because they don't care if it takes you two days or two months to watch a series; they want your eyeballs on their service for X-number of hours.

Hulu is partially ad-funded. You can buy an ad-free subscription, or an ad-supported one for less (I think there's a free option, but I don't remember; I just bought the ad-free one). They're interested in targeting ads appropriately, which requires gathering metrics on viewership on a week-to-week basis, so they don't always drop an entire season at once like Netflix does. Plus their video player sucks; I always have trouble streaming 4K or even 1080P from them (whenever THAT'S available, which is rarely) without constant interruptions, and that's on devices connected by a hard line. Way, way too heavy of a player. I never seem to have trouble with Netflix; it just works, perfectly, almost every time (browser crashes occasionally, but that's to be expected).

Anyway, Netflix's goal is to keep people subscribed by keeping people invested in their catalog, not what's coming next week. They know that you'll stay subscribed between releases of Jessica Jones and Daredevil because they also have the entire series of Supernatural ready to stream.

HBO is in big, big trouble in a couple of years. Game of Thrones ends in 2019, and they don't have much to keep people coming back, aside from Westworld (maybe a third season of True Detective, if that ever happens), and that's not nearly as popular. I don't think they smartened up after True Blood ended. They used to have a solid release schedule, with good stuff coming out as seasons ended. Now everyone just waits for the one show anyone cares about. When GoT ends, nobody is going to want to watch the inevitable twelve spinoffs they try to launch, though people will try to act excited. See Better Call Saul, which is just as good as Breaking Bad, but has a fraction of the audience.

Sorry, this was like a weird tangent, but I think about TV and subscription services a lot.

On topic, I think Netflix is the perfect company to produce and distribute a Dresden show. I don't know about anyone else's experience with Dresden, but when I discovered it (funnily enough, because the terrible show was on Netflix; believe it or not, I saw potential after the pilot, found out it was a book series, and bought Storm Front that night), I binge-read the series in a week. This was in... 2009? It was before Changes. I find that Dresden books read really, really well in a single sitting, if you can manage it. Storm Front is way better if you read it all at once than split over a few sessions.

Anyway, because I believe strongly that any adaptation should stick to the source material, I think that Netflix is the right place because the plots play better when they're binged. I've mentioned in other threads that Netflix did an outstanding job with A Series of Unfortunate Events thus far (along with the cast; Nathan Fillion is going to be in the next season, so how bad could it be?). I'm giving Netflix a big portion of the credit for that, because network executives have a habit of screwing good stories. They really know how to get out of the way of the people who know what they're doing, and provide more than enough support for the production teams to do what they do best.

If the showrunners of an adaptation are fans, and Netflix stays out of their way, and they get a good enough cast, then the show could be perfect.

Meanwhile, someone needs to get a Peter Jackson type to adapt the Codex Alera as movies, because Hollywood needs new high fantasy.

[Rasins]

Meanwhile, someone needs to get a Peter Jackson type to adapt the Codex Alera as movies, because Hollywood needs new high fantasy.

I would love that, and I could not agree more.

[Kindler]

I would love that, and I could not agree more.

They tried to replicate the success of LoTR with Narnia, but ran into trouble with the aging cast and the character turnover rate between installments—not all the characters are in each, which left viewers unfamiliar with the source material confused. The Hobbit trilogy was fun, but totally overdone and stretched out like butter spread over too much bread, to quote Bilbo.

And really, it's tailor-made for a feature adaptation. The first installment can use a relative no-name cast; the budget requirements are relatively small; locations are almost entirely remote, forest settings; set requirements are minimal (you need The Princeps Memoriam, a few bedrooms, a Grand Hall for Bernardholdt, and a stereotypical Castle Courtyard for Second Calderon); effects are few—the biggest struggle is that their firecrafters are taken down, so all the effects are wind (cheap), water (kinda CG-heavy, but not bad), and earth (for Brutus); there's never any shortage of extras to play A Horde of Bad Guys; you only need firm, franchise casting for a handful of roles, etc. It could be made for a bargain when matched against Cape movies, and, if successful, can lead to a six-entry franchise. Hell, Jim even did the work of splitting the last entry into two (I consider Princeps and First Lord to be the same story; there's no real pause in the narrative) which Hollywood loves to do.

Really, Furies of Calderon is a proof-of-concept movie that could be made just to show that it can be profitable, because the expenses won't start piling up until Academ's Fury, when you need to start CGing all those Canim. Even that one is pretty light, because there are only a few at any time, and the pitched battle scene is a cave with human combatants, again, with limited special effects. So, it'd be like an extended CG test.

Anyway, I want these movies badly, and I doubt I'll ever get them, but that won't stop me from griping constantly while Hollywood doubles down on capes and remakes.

[Talby16]

I would love that, and I could not agree more.

I am just finishing up a reread of Codex Alera. I think that it actually breaks up better for a tv series than the Dresden Files (besides the money needed for special effects). Between all the battles and twists/turns there are plenty of spots to end an episode/season. As Kindler said, the first few are relatively cheap to do. Expenses won't start piling up until Cursor's Fury when you have large scale battles involving the Canim.

[Quantus]

I agree that Codex Alera would make a great high-fantasy on screen, but at this point I hope it falls into the new wave of TV/miniseries adaptations that get more total screen time. 

Also, since Im already a fan, so Id far rather them have a moderate but functional CGI budget and more screen-time to tell the story over the unlimited budgets of big blockbusters with a 2-3 hour run-time limitation.

[Rasins]

Well, let's not forget the battle against the Marat in Furies.  And all their Challa.  Not impossible, but adds to the budget.

[Talby16]

And really, it's tailor-made for a feature adaptation. The first installment can use a relative no-name cast; the budget requirements are relatively small; locations are almost entirely remote, forest settings; set requirements are minimal (you need The Princeps Memoriam, a few bedrooms, a Grand Hall for Bernardholdt, and a stereotypical Castle Courtyard for Second Calderon)

There are only a few casting issues. Number one, Tavi is very small for his age until Cursor's Fury and Captain's Fury when he rapidly catches up and fills in. You might need two actors for Tavi. Second, Kitai can be mistaken for a boy when Tavi first meets her, but by Cursor's Fury/Captain's Fury she is described as an exotic beauty. Once again, two actress might be needed, but the same actress could potentially play Kitai and the Vord Queen. Third, there are distinct skin colorations for the different regions. Marat are pale, Countess Amara is described as having golden skin, another region is described as having swarthy skin etc. I personally not be opposed if some of those regional differences are discarded (except perhaps the Marat), but it might upset others.

With regards to Furies of Calderon sets, like Kindler mentioned, they are pretty generic for the most part. Steadholdts are interchangeable, mercenary camp, Marat camp, generic Castle (just have to make sure that this is consistent across all the seasons). The biggest expense will be the Wax forest and the Wax spiders. Even that can be mitigated though by creating one medium set and showing it at different angles to simulate different parts of the forest. The single biggest expense of the first book would be the Marat horde with all their animals.

My biggest fear about a Codex Alera series would be that they would try to save money and cut costs by cutting/limiting the battles. If we are going to get a this series made into a show I want a commitment to show all the battles in all their glory.

One thought I had: if this would get made into a show, maybe they could convince Jim to write a few short stories that flesh out some of the event surrounding First Calderon, the romance between Isana and Septimus, and the death of Septimus. Heck maybe even a little more backstory for Fidelias (what transpired between Academ's and Cursor's Fury) would be welcome. These things are touched on in the book series, but could be slightly expanded and used to pace/fill in the show.

[Quantus]

There are only a few casting issues. Number one, Tavi is very small for his age until Cursor's Fury and Captain's Fury when he rapidly catches up and fills in. You might need two actors for Tavi. Second, Kitai can be mistaken for a boy when Tavi first meets her, but by Cursor's Fury/Captain's Fury she is described as an exotic beauty. Once again, two actress might be needed, but the same actress could potentially play Kitai and the Vord Queen. Third, there are distinct skin colorations for the different regions. Marat are pale, Countess Amara is described as having golden skin, another region is described as having swarthy skin etc. I personally not be opposed if some of those regional differences are discarded (except perhaps the Marat), but it might upset others.

With regards to Furies of Calderon sets, like Kindler mentioned, they are pretty generic for the most part. Steadholdts are interchangeable, mercenary camp, Marat camp, generic Castle (just have to make sure that this is consistent across all the seasons). The biggest expense will be the Wax forest and the Wax spiders. Even that can be mitigated though by creating one medium set and showing it at different angles to simulate different parts of the forest. The single biggest expense of the first book would be the Marat horde with all their animals.

My biggest fear about a Codex Alera series would be that they would try to save money and cut costs by cutting/limiting the battles. If we are going to get a this series made into a show I want a commitment to show all the battles in all their glory.

One thought I had: if this would get made into a show, maybe they could convince Jim to write a few short stories that flesh out some of the event surrounding First Calderon, the romance between Isana and Septimus, and the death of Septimus. Heck maybe even a little more backstory for Fidelias (what transpired between Academ's and Cursor's Fury) would be welcome. These things are touched on in the book series, but could be slightly expanded and used to pace/fill in the show.

Agreed, you'd need two Tavi's and two Kitai's.  I could even see three Tavi's: one for FoC, one for AF and CF, and a third for the full-grown legionnaire Captain Princepts.  Or, more likely in Hollywood they cast the adult Tavi young and then pay for his body-building trainer and steroids.

[raidem]

I finished watching travelers on Netflix. Thanks griffyn for mentioning that series.  It's a great one. I can't wait to watch the next season.  I hope there is a next season.

[Talby16]

Agreed, you'd need two Tavi's and two Kitai's.  I could even see three Tavi's: one for FoC, one for AF and CF, and a third for the full-grown legionnaire Captain Princepts.  Or, more likely in Hollywood they cast the adult Tavi young and then pay for his body-building trainer and steroids.

In that situation they should also use the third Tavi and have him play Septimus as well with some slight alterations.