Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?

[Lost Merlin]

I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.

I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.

I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.

Dr. Strange could have

[Lost Merlin]

Sorry, can't find it.  I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare.  But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.

Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.

Didn't Lasciel have information from Lash from her time in Harry? In SG didn't Lasciel say somethings that only lash would know? been a while since I read SG so I cannot remember correctly. 

[Mr. Death]

Dr. Strange could have

Honestly I very nearly name-dropped him as the example.

[Griffyn612]

I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.

I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.

I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.

Well, they could if they found the right master... or should I say, Ancient One...

[groinkick]

Jim said that anyone who works hard can learn some magic.  I think that it has less to do with forgetting, or being unable to tap into it once again after too long.  I think it has to do with Choice.  You have to really believe in what you're doing with magic for it to work.  If you make the choice that you don't want to do magic anymore, you're basically neutering the most important requirement, belief. 

Molly's mother for example.  She can no longer do magic.  However if some change in her happened where she had a strong desire, and absolute determined to use magic again, I think she'd get it back.  It would take a lot of time to get her full power back probably.  Years, or maybe a decade of work.

[wardenferry419]

Butters manage to manipulate magically forces, powered by Bob, like an engineer.

[Mr. Death]

Butters manage to manipulate magically forces, powered by Bob, like an engineer.

More that Butters engineered things for Bob to power and manipulate. Bob is the one doing all the leg work.

[LordDresden2]

I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.

I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.

I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.

Yeah, but it's two different potentials.  What Harry and his ilk have that other people don't is a great ability to take in and use magical energy from outside themselves.  Harry even has more of that than most Council Wizards.

But the power for a death curse comes from inside.  You don't have to find it, draw it in, etc., it's already there waiting to be used...if you don't mind losing the purpose it's already serving.  That's why even when entrapped in a circle that cuts off outside magical energy, it can still be used.

So it's not clear that you need any special abilities to do a death curse, just the necessary knowledge and skills.

[forumghost]

I don't think that a non-practitioner can do it, simply because pure Muggles (like Butter's) even possessing the necessary knowledge, lack the simple ability to manipulate the energy for the spell- so even if they have the life-force, they can't channel it.

And even if they did, it wouldn't be worth it. Even small-timers like Cassius can only pull off a rubbish Death Curse, it's really only relevant with higher-end Magic users. A regular mortal would probably just produce the equivalent of Darth Wannabe's Bad Feng Shui Curse.

Not really worth killing yourself for.

[groinkick]

I don't think that a non-practitioner can do it, simply because pure Muggles (like Butter's) even possessing the necessary knowledge, lack the simple ability to manipulate the energy for the spell- so even if they have the life-force, they can't channel it.

And even if they did, it wouldn't be worth it. Even small-timers like Cassius can only pull off a rubbish Death Curse, it's really only relevant with higher-end Magic users. A regular mortal would probably just produce the equivalent of Darth Wannabe's Bad Feng Shui Curse.

Not really worth killing yourself for.

lol if a 100% non magical user tried it would be like Mad Eye Moody said.  You wouldn't even give them a bloody nose.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, but it's two different potentials.  What Harry and his ilk have that other people don't is a great ability to take in and use magical energy from outside themselves.  Harry even has more of that than most Council Wizards.

But the power for a death curse comes from inside.  You don't have to find it, draw it in, etc., it's already there waiting to be used...if you don't mind losing the purpose it's already serving.  That's why even when entrapped in a circle that cuts off outside magical energy, it can still be used.

So it's not clear that you need any special abilities to do a death curse, just the necessary knowledge and skills.

Where are you getting the idea that Harry only ever uses outside power for his normal spells?

He and other wizards can use outside sources of power but their normal power also comes at least in part from inside themselves. Harry refers to how much he has "in the tank," not how much he can draw from outside. If all the power was coming from outside, then why does everybody keep referring to how much power/reserves a character has?

And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.

[Kindler]

And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.

If it is as you say, then yeah, it's impossible for Maggie to pull off a death curse. There's every reason to believe that "setting aside" your magic removes your ability to shape and redirect energy, regardless of source.

My question is whether or not setting magic aside removes your ability to shape, but rather your ability to sense. Less like a surgeon losing his hands, and more like his hands are shot up with Novocaine. It would make day to day magic so difficult that it's totally impractical to perform, but leaves open the possibility for doing something clumsy, out of desperation.

There is absolutely no evidence for this in the books, as the concept is only introduced three times (all three of which are related to the Carpenters, funny enough; Michael mentions it to Harry as a way to get rid of Lash, Charity actually did it, and Harry presents it as an option to Molly down the line, when she has a handle on her power. I'm sure there's an argument to be made that connects it to the Parable of the Talents, but that's outside this discussion, and not really relevant).

Anyway, I don't believe that Margaret's death curse was clumsy; it stuck to Raith, and magic slides off him. It was deliberate, focused, and effective in a way that other wizards weren't able to match since Etruria. Whether this is an artifact of its nature as a death curse or a testament to Margaret's skill I can't say, though I'd argue that it's reasonably likely that other wizards have fired death curses Papa Raith's way in the past. Maybe because it targeted Raith's connection to his Hunger rather than Raith himself? Or maybe because it was anchored to a bloodline, a persistent connection? Regardless, it wasn't the work of someone with numb hands; it was a sniper shot Kincaid would be proud of.

Though I do think the connection between Margaret's soulgaze message and Lash is very interesting. I haven't considered that in the past, but it really does seem like there is something similar about them. It wasn't just a recording—the pendant's ruby does that—it was a piece of Margaret. No idea how she was able to pull that off without understanding the way the Coins work, or at least the way something else we haven't seen does it.

[Mr. Death]

The numbness thing might be more apt as a comparison, since I believe Jim, when asked whether Charity could pick up magic again, likened it to someone who had once been a symphony musician but gave it up for years and years trying to reclaim their skills -- at the very least, it'd take years and years of work to get almost back to where they were before they gave it up, since their skills have atrophied.

[Kindler]

The numbness thing might be more apt as a comparison, since I believe Jim, when asked whether Charity could pick up magic again, likened it to someone who had once been a symphony musician but gave it up for years and years trying to reclaim their skills -- at the very least, it'd take years and years of work to get almost back to where they were before they gave it up, since their skills have atrophied.

I can dig that. I stopped playing the trumpet for a decade, and it took me half a year just to get my lip back (brass players know what I'm talking about). Symphonic orchestration and composition would be significantly more difficult.

[LordDresden2]

Where are you getting the idea that Harry only ever uses outside power for his normal spells?

He and other wizards can use outside sources of power but their normal power also comes at least in part from inside themselves. Harry refers to how much he has "in the tank," not how much he can draw from outside. If all the power was coming from outside, then why does everybody keep referring to how much power/reserves a character has?

It takes effort on the part of the person to use that outside energy.  Yeah, the energy is there to be drawn on, but using it takes concentration and focus and effort that come from the character.  Think back to Fool Moon, at one point Harry is so exhausted that he can barely manage to hex a small security camera.

He's not inside a circle, there's plenty of magical energy around.  Another Wizard, fresh to fight, could have hexed the camera, or melted it with a blast of flame, or the like.  But Harry was so tired that he couldn't make the magic flow.  He even worries he might have overstrained his talent and done permanent damage.

Since then, he's built up his endurance and can throw a lot more magic, but it still takes effort and focus from him to manipulate external magical energy.

And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.

But there's no reason to think that these are the same thing.  JB has said that everybody has at least a little ability to use magic, so it's not the ability to manipulate the energy that is different in people like Harry, it's their ability to handle large amounts in a highly skilled way.