Small Favor - Arbitrator Choice

[Rasins]

I am re-listening to Small Favor and wonder something.

Gard is the one who asks Harry to get the Wouncil to bring up an objection through the Accords.

I wonder how different things would have been if she'd have gotten Vadderung (a free-holding Lord under the Accords) to bring up the object and called upon Harry to be the Mediator instead of the Archive.

[Quantus]

I am re-listening to Small Favor and wonder something.

Gard is the one who asks Harry to get the Wouncil to bring up an objection through the Accords.

I wonder how different things would have been if she'd have gotten Vadderung (a free-holding Lord under the Accords) to bring up the object and called upon Harry to be the Mediator instead of the Archive.

Ive long been a little curious if she could have.  I just mean that Im not clear on all the functional differences between a Freeholding Lord and an Accorded nation/organization like the Council or the various Courts.  At the very least I suspect Marcone would have gotten a larger Bill for the assistance from Vadderung (based on the mention of obligation/debt during the scene in Changes).

[Rasins]

Ive long been a little curious if she could have.  I just mean that Im not clear on all the functional differences between a Freeholding Lord and an Accorded nation/organization like the Council or the various Courts.  At the very least I suspect Marcone would have gotten a larger Bill for the assistance from Vadderung (based on the mention of obligation/debt during the scene in Changes).

Of course that would have ruined the Denarians plans to get the Archive as a member.  But they might have had a chance at Vadderung/Odin/Kringle.

[Quantus]

Of course that would have ruined the Denarians plans to get the Archive as a member.  But they might have had a chance at Vadderung/Odin/Kringle.

That's sort of my point: The Denarians were somehow counting on Gard going to Harry rather than to her own Employer.  She made it clear she couldnt do anything on Marcone's behalf as nobody in his organization got any sort of standing (Side: I wonder if he cold declare a standing Proxy?), so I wonder if similar legal/technical Accords issues prevented Vadderung from being a viable alternative to Harry and the Council

[raidem]

Vadderung May have ordered her to leave him out of it.

Somehow then, nic expected that.

[Quantus]

Vadderung May have ordered her to leave him out of it.

Somehow then, nic expected that.

Precisely.  So I figure either there is some known reason why he /couldnt/ offer the same aid, such as it being outside the ability of all Freeholding Lords (as an example).  Or else he had some specific reason to count on Vadderung Choosing to stay out of it; which could be as simple as that being the know SOP for Monoc Securities's Contractors, or could be something for more specific to the situation and/or Vadderungs interest in Marcone himself. 

[Rasins]

Well, I just checked the timeline and was disappointed.  SM takes place late November.

I was thinking that maybe Kringle was needing to be at the North Pole supervising his manufacturers when it went down, but I imagine that happens after Thanksgiving, not before.

[jonas]

Precisely.  So I figure either there is some known reason why he /couldnt/ offer the same aid, such as it being outside the ability of all Freeholding Lords (as an example).  Or else he had some specific reason to count on Vadderung Choosing to stay out of it; which could be as simple as that being the know SOP for Monoc Securities's Contractors, or could be something for more specific to the situation and/or Vadderungs interest in Marcone himself.

3rd option, Gard is suspect? She's around later when the coin goes missing too, her general attitude towards Choice/Hubris when Marcone exercises it in DB doesn't match up with what I expect from someone under Vadderrung... But right up with the Greek Nemesis's opinions..
One wonders why Vadderrung kept part of his mortality to be able to effect choice only to have his direct underling dislike the practice? Seems odd to me at least.

[Quantus]

3rd option, Gard is suspect? She's around later when the coin goes missing too, her general attitude towards Choice/Hubris when Marcone exercises it in DB doesn't match up with what I expect from someone under Vadderrung... But right up with the Greek Nemesis's opinions..
One wonders why Vadderrung kept part of his mortality to be able to effect choice only to have his direct underling dislike the practice? Seems odd to me at least.

Fair point, especially given the missing coin.  Her issues with Marcone's Choice in DB never struck me as her having a problem with Marcone exercising Free Will so much as a Chooser of the Slain being made uncomfortable by her Slain-Choosing powers being foiled/circumvented. 

[Snark Knight]

That's sort of my point: The Denarians were somehow counting on Gard going to Harry rather than to her own Employer.  She made it clear she couldnt do anything on Marcone's behalf as nobody in his organization got any sort of standing (Side: I wonder if he cold declare a standing Proxy?), so I wonder if similar legal/technical Accords issues prevented Vadderung from being a viable alternative to Harry and the Council

Given how heavily Accords law seems to lean on the employer being responsible for the employee, Monoc as a contractor employed by Marcone probably counts as an extension of his organization in matters pertaining to him. His own hirelings probably can't file challenge on his behalf.

I doubt their plan could have been swapped on the fly to capturing Vadderung / Kringle instead of Ivy anyway. As Tessa said, the strength of the plan was attacking the child instead of the Archive. Even if Mr. Foresight walked into the trap of a meeting at all, he probably would have been just about equally effective at stalling the Denarians until the barrier wore out as Ivy was, and much less susceptible to knock-out gas.

[Avernite]

I'm wondering if it's maybe not so much the distinction between freeholding lords and supernatural nations, as it is pure power.

It's a bit unclear to me what the Unseelie Accords really mean in this case - but the challenge Harry levied may well have been more or less 'respond to our challenge or face war' rather than what we assume 'respond to our challenge or be in violation of the Accords'.

So, Gard might fear the Denarians could just shrug off being challenged by Monoc, feeling they could accept their emnity (and, at worst, being declared war on) while they could not afford that even with a distracted White Council (who are, notionally, the lynchpin of the supernatural balance of power). And Nick would know that and act accordingly.

[Quantus]

Given how heavily Accords law seems to lean on the employer being responsible for the employee, Monoc as a contractor employed by Marcone probably counts as an extension of his organization in matters pertaining to him. His own hirelings probably can't file challenge on his behalf.

I doubt their plan could have been swapped on the fly to capturing Vadderung / Kringle instead of Ivy anyway. As Tessa said, the strength of the plan was attacking the child instead of the Archive. Even if Mr. Foresight walked into the trap of a meeting at all, he probably would have been just about equally effective at stalling the Denarians until the barrier wore out as Ivy was, and much less susceptible to knock-out gas.

Your missing my point:  Marcones underlings clearly did not have any status to bring a Charge on his behalf, gard basically said as much.  And there is no way their plan could have been made to work for Vadderung (it was entirely planned as an attack on something in a little girl's body.  My point is that they dont seem to have had any way to predict that Gard would ask Harry for help in bringing a Complaint under the Accords on Marcones behalf.  If Harry could do it presumably Vaddwerung or Hades or any other Accord member that he'd been dealing with and had less antagonism toward.  The Denarians were somehow Entirely certain that Gard would contact Harry and so it would be Harry Choosing the Arbiter, which in turn is how they were able to predict the Archive's involvement at all. 

[Kindler]

Your missing my point:  Marcones underlings clearly did not have any status to bring a Charge on his behalf, gard basically said as much.  And there is no way their plan could have been made to work for Vadderung (it was entirely planned as an attack on something in a little girl's body.  My point is that they dont seem to have had any way to predict that Gard would ask Harry for help in bringing a Complaint under the Accords on Marcones behalf.  If Harry could do it presumably Vaddwerung or Hades or any other Accord member that he'd been dealing with and had less antagonism toward.  The Denarians were somehow Entirely certain that Gard would contact Harry and so it would be Harry Choosing the Arbiter, which in turn is how they were able to predict the Archive's involvement at all.

Perhaps Nic knew that Mab would involve Harry, and that once Harry found out what was going on, he'd do what he did in White Night and rely on the Accords.

Vadderung may also not be able to be involved because of his dual role as Kringle. If Harry is marked as Winter's emissary, it may cause problems if another Fae gets involved, even as his Vaderrung mask.

Another possibility: Vaderrung told Gard to use Harry for the Accords so he could get acquainted with Demonreach (obviously without telling her why). Same deal with Mab. Harry's been manipulated and mind-warped a bunch in this book, and it's believable to me that several Powers are interested enough in filling the role of Warden enough that they guided Harry towards the island.

[raidem]

I think a goal for Nemesis would be to get Harry to Demonreach.  Demonreach needs to get activated to make it vulnerable for Cold Days Outsider attack.  Nemesis wanted a Newbie Harry as Warden, one that would make a critically wrong choice in Cold Days.

The good guys had their own reasons for wanting Harry on Demonreach. So, I think both sides had the end goal of bringing Marcone and Ivy to the Island.  The apparent reason for the Fallen to imprison Ivy on Demonreach was to imprison Ivy.

[Quantus]

Perhaps Nic knew that Mab would involve Harry, and that once Harry found out what was going on, he'd do what he did in White Night and rely on the Accords.

That's certainly possible, though it still doesnt entirely explain Mab's involvement in the first place.  We can say she was just defending the Accords, but if that were the case nobody would have needed

Vadderung may also not be able to be involved because of his dual role as Kringle. If Harry is marked as Winter's emissary, it may cause problems if another Fae gets involved, even as his Vaderrung mask.

This shouldnt be an issue here, since Winter's only involvement is through Harry.  Harry himself cant be the reason they had to use Harry and Not Vadderung.  If they (gard/Hendricks) had just gone to Vadderung, Harry's involvement or lack thereof wouldnt have been any more restrictive than the fact that the Accords themselves are technically a Winter thing.

Another possibility: Vaderrung told Gard to use Harry for the Accords so he could get acquainted with Demonreach (obviously without telling her why). Same deal with Mab. Harry's been manipulated and mind-warped a bunch in this book, and it's believable to me that several Powers are interested enough in filling the role of Warden enough that they guided Harry towards the island.

This is always the unavoidable Fall-back: that one of the Big Players had enough foresight to use this episode to accomplish something else entirely.