Grey Council vs. Circle

[peregrine]

And while granted, Nic does lie, he's also said that killing off the Red Court is on his to-do list, as they are an obstacle to his ultimate goals.

[raidem]

Thanks Palpatine, I mean peregrine.

[thevickers]

...I had forgotten that. And after that is checked off, he calls in a favor from Mab that was possibly blocked before by RCV? Maybe the break-in was also on this check list? That would suck and be completely par for the course if Harry was inadvertently helping the nickelheads achieve their goals. the Charlie Brown of urban fantasy indeed..

[peregrine]

I don't think that the Red Court as such was specifically blocking him from any step of his master plan, so much as they were another top level predator and he didn't want the competition, that as long as they were around, he wouldn't have complete dominance.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I would counter that they are all likely 100% "Magic-users", which Id say would include Odin given that trained Merlin.  But we know (per McCoy's description at their founding) that the GC ranks include "Some Wizards. Some Key Allies." which to me means that some of their ranks are specifically not mortal wizards. 
This.  Had any of the twelve at arrived been that discinct from the rest, I would have expected some offhand mention. 

That being said, River Shoulders is a master at Water Magic and at concealment, both of which could solve that problem with trivial effort.

Isn't water magic what powers some of Warden Ramirez' spells?  If my memory is correct about Carlos, that could mean that River Shoulders could be more than just a bruiser, he might be able to sling some serious combat spells, or spells that could be adapted for that purpose.  It's been awhile since I read the Bigfoot stories so I don't remember what he could do besides the concealment thing.

[Quantus]

Isn't water magic what powers some of Warden Ramirez' spells?  If my memory is correct about Carlos, that could mean that River Shoulders could be more than just a bruiser, he might be able to sling some serious combat spells, or spells that could be adapted for that purpose.  It's been awhile since I read the Bigfoot stories so I don't remember what he could do besides the concealment thing.

Both Water Magic, but different sub-schools.  But certainly in the realm of possibility, as is Shapeshifting and a decent bit of Healing Magic (all water magics). 

In the shorts he could do Water magic in that same innate way that the Genoskwa did Earth Magic.  He was able to more or less Turn Off the active magical effects in the area, spells and Wampire abilities alike.  Harry described it by saying If magic were throwing rocks into a lake to get ripple effects, what Shoulders did was like waving a hand and making the lake go instantly still again.  Magic on another level entirely. 

[prince lotore]

If a certain dragon (I cant remember his name and dont feel like looking it up) was given a Trojan horse item like lea and survived I could see him convinced to join the grey council 

[Quantus]

If a certain dragon (I cant remember his name and dont feel like looking it up) was given a Trojan horse item like lea and survived I could see him convinced to join the grey council

Ferrovax. Assuming he wasnt caught by the trap, of course.  Lea needed to get outside help to escape it, which may or may not have been an option for Ferro.  Fwiw, the gift itself wasnt particularly unique: it was several million dollars of gold and gems.

[Kindler]

I like the idea of Chandler and would like to see more of him. I'm not sure he's a good fit for the Grey Council; his time manipulation stuff is really dicey, and if he's caught fraternizing with the likes of Ebenezer, suspicion will be extremely heavy. Aside from that, he's already sympathetic to Doing Things the Right Way, but is Too Valuable to Risk Losing; note that he was pretty much the only Warden on his feet by the end of Changes, and we have no idea how he managed that.

To clarify, I think he's a Grey Council asset, and an ally who can be counted on, but not a member. It's one of those Operational Security things. He can gather and pass information, but actually showing up for an unsanctioned fight is a different story. That said, I'd love it if I was wrong, mostly because I Like His Abuse of Capitalization.

Luccio is a reasonable bet—but only became a candidate for this type of thing post body-switch. I think it's altered her perspective a lot. I know the Grey Council post-dates that, but I think it's an important distinction.

Ramirez is on it. I'm willing to bet a whole lot on that. Though I think Harry would've noticed his green disintegration rays being thrown around.

I desperately want Klaus the Toymaker. He's too freaking awesome.

I don't think the Gatekeeper has time to be on the Grey Council. Maybe in an advise-and-consent capacity.

Maybe Wild Bill? The mad Texan certainly sounds capable, and Harry trusts him to an extent.

Eb trusts Listens-to-Wind and Martha Liberty. Martha in particular is valuable; she's an information-gatherer. We've seen a little of what Listens-to-Wind can do, but not nearly what he's really capable of, I suspect. Not sure he was there at Chichen Itza, but I'd bet you money that Martha provided the coordinates for the lightning-arrival (think about how difficult it would have to be to travel like that without landing on anything).

I think we can eliminate Ancient Mai. She's...too hostile to Harry and Ebenezer. Loyal (to the Council), scary, but definitely not sympathetic enough to break tradition. Same with Arthur Langtry.

As for non-wizard allies:

I'd like it if River Shoulders was involved, but my sense of his characterization is that he's a neutral third-party. He doesn't want to be involved; he just wants to live quietly in peace.

I also don't think the Fae are in on it (though alternate masks, like Vadderung, are obviously possible) simply because they can't lie about it, which makes them a really dumb admission to a secret society. The Erlking isn't on it, but his other mask, Hades, might be (just kidding, that's 100% speculation and I don't have anything at all to back that up; it mostly just appeals to my sense of symmetry for Kringle's counterpart to similarly have a god persona, Hades had a similar reaction to Harry as the Erlking ("you're kinda pissing me off, but I have a certain amount of respect for the size and weight of your cajones"), and I also think it would be cool).

There is also very little chance of Lara being involved; Eb was ready to rip her head off, literally, one book prior. He really, really hates White Court Vampires, and the Raiths in particular; see Margaret's history for reasons why.

Eldest Gruff is interesting, but I still don't think he's involved. He can't lie, he's really tiny, and I think Eb has had it up to here with the Fae in general.

I don't think the Archive can be part of something like the Grey Council. I think it goes against her programming. Though Harry's influence might've changed that. And Eb certainly doesn't trust Kincaid enough.

Denarians are a risky proposition, and while they might provide firepower and intelligence, they're not worth the inevitable betrayal.

I think Marcone might be in on it to some degree. He keeps his word pretty well, and has access to vanilla resources Eb can't really get anywhere else. Plus he has a built-in handler with Harry if it comes down to it. He wasn't at Chicken Pizza, but I think he might be one of those non-combatant allies—or, rather, he provides intel and resources in exchange for things.

How about Eb's contact among the Kenku? Evidently, they owed him enough of a favor to commit hundreds of fighters for a single engagement. That's some serious debt, which implies a level trust, to me. And it would certainly have to be someone relatively high on the totem pole, as they'd need enough pull among the Kenku to provide that much support.

I doubt Ferrovax is involved; Jim's statements about dragons indicate that if one of them got in on things, it wouldn't just be game-changing, it'd be full on game-ending; they're on a scale of power so vast that they need to be measured with a Richter scale (literally—they shift continents).

Beyond that, I don't really know. It's one of the things I really, really want to learn more about in Peace Talks. Though I guess they'll view Harry's Winter Knighthood as a security risk now.

[Quantus]

I doubt Ferrovax is involved; Jim's statements about dragons indicate that if one of them got in on things, it wouldn't just be game-changing, it'd be full on game-ending; they're on a scale of power so vast that they need to be measured with a Richter scale (literally—they shift continents).

I dont think he'd be any less likely than Vadderung, at least based on their Power measure.  By Personality I certainly expect he's far less likely to Care enough to get involved.  That being said, I would not doubt that he could be either Bought (because Dragons love riches) or that he could be Insulted enough (maybe via a failed Nemfection attempt) to Get Involved. 

[raidem]

The problem I see is Ferrovax would be restricted from placing his full form upon the Earth, as that would warp reality etc.  I'm assuming he could place a miniFerro to participate in things.

[Quantus]

The problem I see is Ferrovax would be restricted from placing his full form upon the Earth, as that would warp reality etc.  I'm assuming he could place a miniFerro to participate in things.

Even what he was bringing to bear in GP would likely outclass most mortal practitioners; he may not be able to maintain that form in the mortal realm indefinitely, but if it wasnt too difficult to attend the party of a relatively minor Red Court noble, then the sort of battles we are talking about should be too much worse (relative to the actual Power used, I suppose).  As I understand the reality Warping effects there is a matter of exposure-time before the stresses overload reality.  Even the Mothers and multiple Archangels (if you could Michael delivering a sword) have come to the Mortal world for short periods.


Separately, Ive been wondering what that warping woudl actually look like.  I think there is a reasonable chance it would be just a larger version of the warping that happened around Shagnasty

[Kindler]

I'll concede that it may be technically possible for Ferrovax to be involved, though I'd argue that Vadderung doesn't break the world by moving around in it. Odin is more on the level of the Erlking at this point, and probably not an equal to Mab; she can walk around as much as she wants without trouble (though it does get a bit chillier). I think Ferrovax's power is exponentially higher, or otherwise functions in sufficiently differently that a warp effect takes place.

Even what he was bringing to bear in GP would likely outclass most mortal practitioners; he may not be able to maintain that form in the mortal realm indefinitely, but if it wasnt too difficult to attend the party of a relatively minor Red Court noble, then the sort of battles we are talking about should be too much worse (relative to the actual Power used, I suppose).  As I understand the reality Warping effects there is a matter of exposure-time before the stresses overload reality.  Even the Mothers and multiple Archangels (if you could Michael delivering a sword) have come to the Mortal world for short periods.

I don't recall the Mothers coming to the mortal world; did that happen and I forgot it? Or was it in one of the short stories I haven't read yet?

And Uriel showing up at Michael's house partially froze time. No idea what the Janitor Disguise did elsewhere, if anything.

Separately, Ive been wondering what that warping woudl actually look like.  I think there is a reasonable chance it would be just a larger version of the warping that happened around Shagnasty

Yeah, I kinda want to see that. Jim has teased a full Dragon book before the end (along with a Kaiju one; I'm anticipating them being the same book), so I expect we'll see what happens when someone accidentally breaks reality.

[Quantus]

I'll concede that it may be technically possible for Ferrovax to be involved, though I'd argue that Vadderung doesn't break the world by moving around in it. Odin is more on the level of the Erlking at this point, and probably not an equal to Mab; she can walk around as much as she wants without trouble (though it does get a bit chillier). I think Ferrovax's power is exponentially higher, or otherwise functions in sufficiently differently that a warp effect takes place.

Hard to say on the other relative Power levels (particularly Vadderung who's said to be a special case in a bunch of ways) but at the very least we know he can walk the mortal world for an evening without causing any collateral damage.

I don't recall the Mothers coming to the mortal world; did that happen and I forgot it? Or was it in one of the short stories I haven't read yet?

The only instance of them being fully in the mortal world is when Harry summoned Mother Winter and (accidentally) forced her to come get him, and she wasnt there long (or fully, I suspect).  Other than that they were able to both be present during the Battle in SK, which was some sort of border-zone of the NN and not truely the Mortal world

[raidem]

I've changed the title of the thread to include the Circle so feel free to also try to figure out the membership of the Circle.

I swallowed. Cowl. It had been Cowl. I'd heard the hatred and venom in his voice, the familiarity—and the overwhelming power of his magic had been unmistakable. He'd survived the Darkhallow. He was working with this "Circle," who were almost certainly the Black Council, and there was some kind of larger mischief afoot inChicago than I had suspected.

So far with respect to the Circle, I'm guessing that these may be/have been considered part of the Circle:
Cowl, Maeve, Fomor, RCV King, Lord Raith...