Cold Case - Molly's Truth

[Mr. Death]

All that is of course assuming a property of the Starborn that nobody in the know about the Starborn has ever alluded to in any manner, and for which there has been no evidence or suggestion of the possibility in the books.

[Arjan]

All that is of course assuming a property of the Starborn that nobody in the know about the Starborn has ever alluded to in any manner, and for which there has been no evidence or suggestion of the possibility in the books.

No worry. It will all be explained in the prequel brought to us by the time traveling future Jim Butcher to be read before the series started. You have read it, you will remember later.

[jonas]

Her worth certainly but that has nothing to do with being starborn. We have no clues about that. Nothing special about her time or place of birth for example.
Not really. The choice was thirteen years ago but after that both worlds went their own way and the people on both worlds are different peoples with different histories. Mirror Mirror is more like traveling to alternative worlds, not time travel as such.

Multiverse. in a multiverse space and tiem are directly related and worlds are in parallel the closer they are to each other in results. ergo any space travel is immediately time travel. (oh, and yea, there will be years of time travel) Sorry, except... i'm not

[jonas]

"I see this" as your perspective does not absolve you from needing to support it.  And no, it's a negative statement, since I am arguing against what you affirmed, and have yet to provide any evidence to back up aside from her being the daughter of Michael and Charity.  So it's not really legalese lol  You made the statement "Molly is Starborn."  Back it up.  Until you do, I get to default to "No she isn't."

I see this as an effect of Molly being starborn.
YOU said "Molly isn't starborn" quit trying to split Hairs because I really don't care to prove anything to people who do that.
Your default is unprovable, your attitude is untenable and overall your wrong anyway i'm just not going to bother with someone who thinks this way.
I set a provisional, you set an affirmative negative as a reply. You don't understand debating, good bye.
(ohhh and Mollly is a Starborn have a swell day)
*the method of inferring a cause by studying the direct effects is kinda the basis of theory. the proof is sheerly in the results. i.e. Molly Gainsaying Fae nature itself.

Once again, this is exactly how we do not behave here.   If you can not make your point without a "you" statement regarding the thoughts of fellow forum members, you have not made a point, you have made an attack. 

Go read the precepts, people.

Blaze, as Mod.

[raidem]

It does seem though that the wild hunt wanted Harry to lead it for a time.  Kringle, or erlking, go so far as to imply that whatever he uses his power to do will grace the wild hunt.  He overthrew sharkface mental assault and granted starborn resistance to the wild hunt.  I believe it was this quality that erlking and kringle wanted to bestow upon the hunt.  It gave them more resistance and attack against outsiders. 

Another point, vadderung continually suggests to Harry that he has allies. Much of it is that he doesn't have to go solo and take risks that would be very bad/stupid without them. A side note, not necessarily related to starborn, in amber a mortal without powers that walks in the shadows with Merlin, a amberite/chaosian, can be empowered by their proximity to this person while they engage in these magical endeavors.  This means that over time Murphy will acquire magical abilities via travel in the nevernever and arctis tor, exposure to wild hunt, exposure to other magical energies, fights with supernatural creatures, etc.

I don't think that Molly is a starborn herself.  I could see though that she is being empowered by Harry starborn power.  And that she is empowering others in a limited fashioned.

[raidem]

I like the bit about mister being starborn and that he bestows it on Harry via proximity

[iago]

Keep it civil y'all. If you can't respect another poster's perspective, stop posting.

[raidem]

I agree with Jonas on the nature of travel between parallel worlds and time travel.  I think they are in a multiverse of parallel worlds that occur in past, present, and future.

Mirror mirror is a present to present situation, but the overall structure is one that allows other combinations.  This is where it is partly correct to say time travel is involved as it is a present, present, case to mirror parallel world.

[peregrine]

So if I can parse the word salad you threw up there, and skipping past the ad hominem attacks, your evidence to support Molly being a Starborn is that she could go against Fae nature?  The Fae nature that she could go against because she's a Starborn?

[Arjan]

The same fae nature that let Maeve ignore her job for more than a century?

Who said that what Molly said was against her fae nature?

[wardenferry419]

My strongest argument against Molly being starborn is the rarity of their appearance. My strongest argument for her being starborn is that the author has spent alot of time building her significance.

[Mr. Death]

Harry being a Starborn appears to have gained the interest of several supernatural factions, all of them wanting to recruit him or destroy him.

Molly only seems to have gained the interest of the Winter Court, and the interest that the Fomor show later is because she was actively fighting them.

Being significant doesn't mean she's a starborn. Her significance is from being Harry's apprentice, then being a wizard, then being the Winter Lady.

[Kindler]

Everyone in the books is important enough without being starborn--even Harry (though his effect on events may or may not be a direct result of his starborn nature).

If you wanted to sell me on the idea that being around and fighting alongside Harry has made them greater than they were (without specifically becoming starborn in some fashion, miniature or otherwise), then I'd agree. It's the same as with Tavi in the Codex Alera; he inspired his Legions by surviving things he shouldn't have, by using what he had to devastating effect, and by preserving the lives of those around him as best he could. As a result, the First Aleran became better, pound for pound, than any of the other legions we see (training and combat experience obviously playing a role here).

Dresden doesn't have a legion; he has friends. He inspires them, and leads them to be more than they were. He shares wisdom, knowledge, and experience with them. As a result, many of the events play out in such a way that their impact is far greater on the grand scale than they would be without Harry.

Also, don't forget that Fae fealty rules might apply; by bringing his friends with him, they become his tools, like the Alphas in Summer Knight. As such, when one of them changes events in such a way that indicates starborn-ness, it's more an extension of Harry than anyone else individually. Murphy killing Maeve is only possible because the starborn brings her there, for example; ditto for Molly's ascension.

Also, unless and until we see literally anyone other than Harry command power over Outsiders (without the use of a ritual designed to summon them)—the one trait we know for a fact that starborn have—as far as I'm concerned, Harry is the only one in canon.

WOJ implies Elaine is one, but I'll believe it when I see it. As far as I can tell, she's not been much of a fulcrum for any events, except for betraying Aurora at a critical moment.

[LordDresden2]

Remember Mab calling Bonnie a parasite? The literal interpretation is not necessary. Even worse I think the Sidhe can say anything as long as there is at least one interpretation of their words that is true.

Bonnie was a parasite, by the dictionary definition.  Mab's statement was literally true.