Marcone's heritage

[Arjan]

Any possibility that Butters, who is Jewish, is descended from the King of Kings?

That is the wrong question.

Is there in Butters family a living (family) tradition documented or oral that describes how Butters descends from the house of David? Does he have a claim however far removed? Is there a story?

Go to one of the earlier versions of this story. The writers of the gospels thought it necessary to include Jesus ancestry. Even if there are two versions with internal contradictions or a strong suspicion that the whole pedigree is fake anyway it was necessary to do so which tells a lot.

[Quantus]

it is not about the bloodline as such, it is about the living tradition, the story.

Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?

And I do not think it was ever presented as a necessary condition, just as something that helps.

Or used to help in the past. Maybe Butters broke with more than one tradition.

Im not convinced this is true.  Not because I dont think it's necessary for the connection to be Known, but I dont think it is operating on the mechanisms of "Belief", nor does it need to be Known, persay.  For one thing, it will always be Known, by the Universal Truth stuff that Ghost-harry tapped into, and also thanks to the Archive.  But for another, this is a Heavenly Power  that is (By WOJ) based on the aspect of Responsibility inherent in Royal Lineage.  Given how TWG's forces have always professed to work regarding Free Will and chains of Choices, I think it's entirely possible that it needs to be a legitimate (if not necessarily direct/linear) connection of Inheritance from a Mortal that made a Choice (and/or made Oaths) to be Responsible for his/her fellow Mortals.  Even if the false tradition of Lineage is centuries old and firmly anchored in history and the minds of the populace, Heaven would still know that the requisite Choice was never made for that line. 

The real difference being that a False royal tradition (entirely common historically) would not work, it would have to be legit.  It also means that, in theory, a New Royal line could arise, given the right situation and Responsibility. 
 

Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?

Not really, but that's only because he's a freaking Knight and the Universe tells them things in strange ways; for all I know the archangel that dropped off Esperacchius just referred to him as "Saladin's heir" through the conversation.  Similarly we only know of the Carpenter/Charlemagne connection because of the research done by an apprentice wizard, which may easily have included anything from supernatural sources of information to Council records (kept by a sub-race of super-long-lived scholars that are themselves a bit obsessed with the genealogy of magical talents.  And our third Data-point is Shiro, who's genealogy research was also done by wizards, and in general Japan has a much more complete and/longstanding cultural tradition of accurate Genealogy records.

All that to say that our datapoints are all abnormal enough to be suspect. 

[Arjan]

Im not convinced this is true.  Not because I dont think it's necessary for the connection to be Known, but I dont think it is operating on the mechanisms of "Belief", nor does it need to be Known, persay.  For one thing, it will always be Known, by the Universal Truth stuff that Ghost-harry tapped into, and also thanks to the Archive.  But for another, this is a Heavenly Power  that is (By WOJ) based on the aspect of Responsibility inherent in Royal Lineage.  Given how TWG's forces have always professed to work regarding Free Will and chains of Choices, I think it's entirely possible that it needs to be a legitimate (if not necessarily direct/linear) connection of Inheritance from a Mortal that made a Choice (and/or made Oaths) to be Responsible for his/her fellow Mortals.  Even if the false tradition of Lineage is centuries old and firmly anchored in history and the minds of the populace, Heaven would still know that the requisite Choice was never made for that line. 

The real difference being that a False royal tradition (entirely common historically) would not work, it would have to be legit.  It also means that, in theory, a New Royal line could arise, given the right situation and Responsibility. 
 

Is it not strange that someone like Sanya not just descends from Saladin but knows it and immediately says it when asked?

Not really, but that's only because he's a freaking Knight and the Universe tells them things in strange ways; for all I know the archangel that dropped off Esperacchius just referred to him as "Saladin's heir" through the conversation.  Similarly we only know of the Carpenter/Charlemagne connection because of the research done by an apprentice wizard, which may easily have included anything from supernatural sources of information to Council records (kept by a sub-race of super-long-lived scholars that are themselves a bit obsessed with the genealogy of magical talents.  And our third Data-point is Shiro, who's genealogy research was also done by wizards, and in general Japan has a much more complete and/longstanding cultural tradition of accurate Genealogy records.

All that to say that our datapoints are all abnormal enough to be suspect.

A false shroud did work, the real one just works better.

[Quantus]

A false shroud did work, the real one just works better.

A false shroud managed to garner some form of Power, but it was notably different/weaker than the authentic one, and that took the popular belief of the entire populace (or at least the relevant cross-section that's heard of christian relics) to fake.   If there were a similarly famous Nail of the Cross in a museum, for example, that would likely be able to focus Faith similar to the faux-shroud and accomplish interesting things as a spell component.  But I maintain that it would not make a Knight, or anything close, because Heaven would not be fooled.   

[jonas]

A false shroud managed to garner some form of Power, but it was notably different/weaker than the authentic one, and that took the popular belief of the entire populace (or at least the relevant cross-section that's heard of christian relics) to fake.   If there were a similarly famous Nail of the Cross in a museum, for example, that would likely be able to focus Faith similar to the faux-shroud and accomplish interesting things as a spell component.  But I maintain that it would not make a Knight, or anything close, because Heaven would not be fooled.   

I'm on the fence on that one, I think the nails are special in and of themselves. but as it was thought of by Harry in SG the sword itself should be capable of taking on that form by Faith alone. It's simply a direct connection to the cosmic force in some ways.
I think that's the Mjolnir reference with Michael's beer opener. The Hammer is a real likely incarnation of Hope/Duty itself. But no Nails were ever directly connected to it. Even the nails themselves hold power through actually having bits of Christ's blood so it's hard to say that extra power is not a direct result of things done with it like Morgana's atheme...
I think my bigger question is what happens to the fake if the real one is destroyed in a secret battle...? does it get the rest by Vector analysis?

[Quantus]

I'm on the fence on that one, I think the nails are special in and of themselves. but as it was thought of by Harry in SG the sword itself should be capable of taking on that form by Faith alone. It's simply a direct connection to the cosmic force in some ways.
I think that's the Mjolnir reference with Michael's beer opener. The Hammer is a real likely incarnation of Hope/Duty itself. But no Nails were ever directly connected to it. Even the nails themselves hold power through actually having bits of Christ's blood so it's hard to say that extra power is not a direct result of things done with it like Morgana's atheme...

You lost me, what?

I think my bigger question is what happens to the fake if the real one is destroyed in a secret battle...? does it get the rest by Vector analysis?

Im going to go with Yes, based purely on the fact that at least some of Fidelacchius's Power actually predates the Nail. 

[jonas]

You lost me, what?

Ermm... key word in sword of faith is Faith? not sword or even nail.

Im going to go with Yes, based purely on the fact that at least some of Fidelacchius's Power actually predates the Nail.

Precisely mine point. I think the power of the cosmic force mixed with the power of the nails in power/purpose. Minus the Nail the force itself would still exist it would simply lack the foci of the Blood of a diety.... Which the focus would conceivably have to do with the purity of the Knight and his time.

[Quantus]

Ermm... key word in sword of faith is Faith? not sword or even nail.

Sure, but I missed the part where Michael's bottle opener was anything more than geek swag?

[peregrine]

But Jim is a lazy author.  Why would he put that in the book if it wasn't secretly a sign that Michael was a descendant of Thor?

[Quantus]

But Jim is a lazy author.  Why would he put that in the book if it wasn't secretly a sign that Michael was a descendant of Thor?

Because: Geeks Love Easter Eggs.  And Cameos.  We dig the cameo's. 

[SerScot]

As with Murphy I have a strong preference for Marcone remaining a Vanilla mortal.  Giving the more detracts from their accomplishments.

[jonas]

Because: Geeks Love Easter Eggs.  And Cameos.  We dig the cameo's. 

No proof per se, but COME ON MAN! He shows Mjolnir in  the hands of the greatest man we know in the same book that Butters remakes The faith saber? the whole thing was a clue bat for thematic purposes(which means its also Nerdy and awesome) It's like when Tolkien made a mountain and put a Volcano in the middle of it, He clearly had plans for that volcano lol. jk.

[Quantus]

No proof per se, but COME ON MAN! He shows Mjolnir in  the hands of the greatest man we know in the same book that Butters remakes The faith saber? the whole thing was a clue bat for thematic purposes(which means its also Nerdy and awesome) It's like when Tolkien made a mountain and put a Volcano in the middle of it, He clearly had plans for that volcano lol. jk.

Nah, it feels more like "Aragorn drank from this tankard in Bree, so clearly it is the physical reincarnation of one of the Silmarils." 

[raidem]

Conjecture stated as fact

In English class in High School, I was taught to make strong sentences dropping "I believe", "I think" so don't assume because I or someone else states something without the qualifiers that they are saying it as undisputed fact.  They are writing strong sentences pushing their argument.  I think it is evident in the case of a fictional universe whereby a writer is arbitrarily creating most of the rules, etc that we are all making 'opinions' contingent upon his 'fact making' ability.

[Quantus]

Side Question:  Assuming Harry is correct and KotC do in fact need some Royal Lineage, does it need to be "Old Blood", as in some Inherited trait?  Could a modern King(pin?) arise in a single generation?  Would non-human 'Kingdoms' like the White  Court count, even if /they/ think of themselves and ruling/cultivation the human population?