Queen Succession Rules

[wardenferry419]

Mab, Maeve, and Harry have predatory mantles.
Maeve is an unrestrained predator.
Harry is a functional predator with control problems.
Mab is a self-controlled predator.
How would each react to the other?

[Cozarkian]

This is evidence to support the idea that the Knight can in fact have sex with the Lady. Or in the case Maeve was lying...

That isn't a lie. Maeve is stating her honest opinion. she believes that the Knight and lady should be together f****** like animals. Just because the reality is that can't happen, doesn't make her opinion a lie.

[Quantus]

That isn't a lie. Maeve is stating her honest opinion. she believes that the Knight and lady should be together f****** like animals. Just because the reality is that can't happen, doesn't make her opinion a lie.

I think it does, at least based on how we saw Mantle Knowledge being conveyed to Molly in Cold Case; it seemed to work kind of like Intellectus where as soon as she considers the issue she'd be Informed of the truth of it.  If we were talking cosmic knowledge that the Mantle might not know anything about (like the whole Mab thing at the end of GS) it might be different, but here we are talking about the Mantle's own functions. 

Also, I HIGHLY doubt the idea of banging the Knight never occurred to her with any of the past knights.

[Cozarkian]

I think it does, at least based on how we saw Mantle Knowledge being conveyed to Molly in Cold Case; it seemed to work kind of like Intellectus where as soon as she considers the issue she'd be Informed of the truth of it.  If we were talking cosmic knowledge that the Mantle might not know anything about (like the whole Mab thing at the end of GS) it might be different, but here we are talking about the Mantle's own functions. 

Also, I HIGHLY doubt the idea of banging the Knight never occurred to her with any of the past knights.

She doesn't need to believe that she can have sex the Knight in order for that statement to be true, she just needs to believe that the rule prohibiting her from doing so is stupid.

It would be like encouraging someone driving a sports car to speed by telling them they are supposed to go fast even though you know there is a cop car that will pull them over if they do.

[Quantus]

She doesn't need to believe that she can have sex the Knight in order for that statement to be true, she just needs to believe that the rule prohibiting her from doing so is stupid.

I have to be misunderstanding you because this sounds entirely counter to the whole "Fae Cannot Lie" rule.  She (physically) has no control over her words, against the mantle anyway.  Even if she disagreed with the Mantle's rules/boundaries/etc it would still be entirely capable of simply Replacing the words she wanted to speak with one's it prefers, as it did with Molly. 

She can think it's stupid all she want, but short of Nemfection that is not enough for her to knowingly speak an actual Falsehood. 

[peregrine]

As I understand it, Cozarkian is talking about Maeve's use of the word "Should."  The Lady and Knight should be sexing like horny bunnies.  The Mantles won't let them, but they should.

[Cozarkian]

I have to be misunderstanding you because this sounds entirely counter to the whole "Fae Cannot Lie" rule.  She (physically) has no control over her words, against the mantle anyway.  Even if she disagreed with the Mantle's rules/boundaries/etc it would still be entirely capable of simply Replacing the words she wanted to speak with one's it prefers, as it did with Molly. 

She can think it's stupid all she want, but short of Nemfection that is not enough for her to knowingly speak an actual Falsehood.

She didn't say a knowing falsehood. She did not say the Knight and Lady can have sex. She used the words "supposed to" - which are a value judgment, not a statement of fact. It's actually a perfect example of how Fae can be devious and manipulative without lying.

[raidem]

It can be used however to support the idea that the Knight and Lady can have sex.  True, there is still the argument that can be made against it.  Now, if she in fact meant "supposed to" knowing it is in fact an occurrence, then it comes that much closer to a lie.  So, I agree with your statement that it isn't a lie, and it largely is an opinion but it doesn't preclude it from being a fact that the knight and lady can have sex.  They definitely in Maeve's opinion should want to.

In any event, the point-at least in another thread-was that Maeve was trying to co-opt Harry for her purposes.  Most likely to aid her in freeing the Sleepers prior to banefire. I forget to which purpose I place certain posts under specific threads.  This one was the knight have sex with lady idea.

[Quantus]

She didn't say a knowing falsehood. She did not say the Knight and Lady can have sex. She used the words "supposed to" - which are a value judgment, not a statement of fact. It's actually a perfect example of how Fae can be devious and manipulative without lying.

Ah.  OK, thanks, I am up to speed.  What I am trying to say is that I do not think that the Winter Lady Mantle would let Maeve (absent Nemfection) make, or at least actually Speak, Value statements disagreeing with the Natural Order or Winter Law.  Not purely because of the Fae's racial inability to speak a known falsehood, but because of the much more stringent and overriding responses we saw in Cold Case, where the Mantle would simply replace the words she intended to speak with other ones it was more comfortable with.  The Lying thing can be circumvented by clever phrasing alone, but I think this gets more into the tangled interweaving of Bargains and Obligation, and in particular whatever the actual force behind Winter Law is.

Granted, I suspect they are driven by the same mechanism, on the logic that sworn Oaths and Bargains are far more literally binding to a race that is incapable of Lying.

[Arjan]

Maeve can lie and her mantle murdering Harry is exactly what she wants.

[jonas]

Maeve can lie and her mantle murdering Harry is exactly what she wants.

But she can't make the mantle lie to Harry. He knows he can take her, and his Mantle knows it would rather do that than try to kill her.

[Arjan]

But she can't make the mantle lie to Harry. He knows he can take her, and his Mantle knows it would rather do that than try to kill her.

I do not think the mantle knows. What the mantle knows the knight can learn and some things are not meant to be known by mortals.

It is just the knights mantle meant for mortals.

[Quantus]

To be fair, at the time of the CD conversation Maeve was Nemfected, so she likely could have ignored all of these sorts of limitations.  It's more the question of what she could do without Outside help, or I guess what Molly can do now.

[Cozarkian]

It can be used however to support the idea that the Knight and Lady can have sex.  True, there is still the argument that can be made against it.  Now, if she in fact meant "supposed to" knowing it is in fact an occurrence, then it comes that much closer to a lie.  So, I agree with your statement that it isn't a lie, and it largely is an opinion but it doesn't preclude it from being a fact that the knight and lady can have sex.  They definitely in Maeve's opinion should want to.

In any event, the point-at least in another thread-was that Maeve was trying to co-opt Harry for her purposes.  Most likely to aid her in freeing the Sleepers prior to banefire. I forget to which purpose I place certain posts under specific threads.  This one was the knight have sex with lady idea.

Im not arguing against that. In fact, see my post #30, as I think I'm the one to first raise the possibility of WK/Lady sex in this thread.

There are really 3 possibilities 1) they can't have sex (but then why seduce him - Maeve seemed strong enough to take Harry without needing the mantle defenses), 2) they can always have sex (but then why didn't she get pregnant with Slade and become Queen) or 3) Nemesis allows Maeve to have sex in addition to lying (but why not just get pregnant and destroy the mantle).

[jonas]

I do not think the mantle knows. What the mantle knows the knight can learn and some things are not meant to be known by mortals.

It is just the knights mantle meant for mortals.

That doesn't really explain anything... it's actually confusing to me lol.