Queen Succession Rules

[raidem]

To keep arguing the Knight could impregnate the Lady is a fools errand.

*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.

From the perspective of the destruction of the Lady mantle, the Knight could possible impregnate the Lady as long as she didn't give birth.  Since Lily and Maeve didn't give birth, given the continued existence of their mantle, I think we can assume the Knight didn't impregnate either.  I think it may be possible for the Lady to push the envelope to such a degree that they could have sex with and, if so, get impregnated by the Knight.

[jonas]

*doffs hat dramatically* Just don't call me Quinten Coldwater and I shan't be offended.

From the perspective of the destruction of the Lady mantle, the Knight could possible impregnate the Lady as long as she didn't give birth.  Since Lily and Maeve didn't give birth, given the continued existence of their mantle, I think we can assume the Knight didn't impregnate either.  I think it may be possible for the Lady to push the envelope to such a degree that they could have sex with and, if so, get impregnated by the Knight.

Transformation, Our prophet Einstein says so. If it didn't realign the courts directly it would transform the Mantle from it's current formation... in essence giving birth to a new form anyway.
*wait now, where's our current Molly's Jenny Greenteeth/high priestess?

[raidem]

A transformation would occur whether that is destruction but energy is left or mantle changes into some mantle other than Lady is a question. I'd say it destroys the mantle, and the power would need to be reabsorbed into the Stone Table to be refashioned in at least one case.

I'm waiting to see who Molly chooses as her second.  It need not be a woman.

[jonas]

Look at what Maeve was actually trying to do and even Lea, being beyond the WQ's control. They were trying to separate the identity from Winter rule itself. Not just replace Mab. The Mantle is spirit, tied into the forces of creation itself, the mantle itself is a container for an elemental power of reality. Destroy only the container and the spirit itself is free to find it's own manifestation, assuming it doesn't just stay with the one it already has made in response. unless intentionally subverted into a new form, as would be simply remaking the mantle. So it's impossible to take the mantle apart without birthing something new in response even if directly from a higher up to maintain a balance instead of from the resulting action itself. Probably why they are called the Mothers(also they created all the mantles, that's where they got the title so..)

[groinkick]

Based on what Mab said I think it is possible for the Lady to get pregnant.  The Mantle will not destroy the fetus.  As a matter of fact the opposite would happen, the fetus would destroy the Mantle, or it would leave the Lady or something like that.  That's why the Mantle defended itself.  If it was easy for the Mantle to destroy the fetus, there would be no need to stop sex from happening.

[raidem]

Excellent point.

Just note that only "becoming a mother" destroys the Lady mantle. We don't exactly know what the definition of mother is, though I've argued it is giving birth as opposed to simply being pregnant.  So the Lady mantle could coexist with a pregnant Lady but not with one that gives birth.

I saw that you already participated in and read the comment I had posted previously.  My apologies if I'm being repetitive.

[groinkick]

Excellent point.

Just note that only "becoming a mother" destroys the Lady mantle. We don't exactly know what the definition of mother is, though I've argued it is giving birth as opposed to simply being pregnant.  So the Lady mantle could coexist with a pregnant Lady but not with one that gives birth.

I saw that you already participated in and read the comment I had posted previously.  My apologies if I'm being repetitive.

Based on the extreme reaction from the Mantle I'd say that even being pregnant is enough.  If not it would just destroy the fetus, abort the pregnancy or something like that.

[jonas]

And yet they specifically ordered the courts the way they were for a reason, and in all of them the mirror/ladder leads up. Makes little sense to abort the process that leads to the growth from one position to another, inhibit sure.
You kill a mothers child though and the new word for the description becomes Crone, like another name for the Mothers, those who were. Another point for the Queens birthing something and the Mothers proper being from the age before that's already passed by.(also MW reference to not my knight, Scarecrow/fearbringer possessed 'served the queen since before human memory')
Spiritual entities mixed with humanity can give birth, Mab basically gave birth to Harry's Id. Even beyond the mortal aspect of pregnancy the Knight is the only one with the proper key to create a 'kid'/entity.
The references are all over how it's described in SK, Consort to the queens, different duties for each, ect.(consort is specifically a lover,)
This is why I ask about the nebulous nature of your theories. When one point is made against them(that the knight actually could take the Lady.. or that the separation of the lady from the queens power was taking place in CD) they simply change that bit while resisting the original premise from being faulty. It's like fighting the Dark Arts professor Snape! Argue(debate, whichever you prefer) this one with me now, here, without avoiding points you don't like in favor of 'how you can make it work' for you. That just sits too close to fitting facts to suite the theory for me. Your making assumptions on when and how the mantle would be destroyed I wish to refute entirely. I'll bring my bottle of disproof, I got it from the guy who was drinking the disbelief

*well, i'm not personally offended about being a fool, but considering me coming to your aid when others bash my fellow forumites I AM offended as a theorist I guess. Should know better not to be That wholey flippant against an opinion based idea your not sure others might have here.

[raidem]

I appreciate your help.

I make arguments.  Others do as well.  I get sidetracked sometimes when I explore other peoples assumptions to see where it takes me (same with mine too at times). I ran into another person's argument that sounded convincing so I backed up and rethought things.  I saw your comment and looked further at the main point of view I was taking. 

The main perspective is anything that doesn't destroy the Lady mantle could be permitted .  So, I agreed with you that it could be possible for the Knight to impregnate the Lady.  We do have the fact set that neither Maeve nor Lily succeeded to give birth, so that could argue that the Knight doesn't impregnate the Lady. In looking at this I still think there may exist a special case which Maeve nor Lily reached that some Lady may whereby the Knight could impregnate the Lady and Lady mantle exist with this state up until the moment of birth.

[raidem]

Based on the extreme reaction from the Mantle I'd say that even being pregnant is enough.  If not it would just destroy the fetus, abort the pregnancy or something like that.

I already argued the prohibition against the Queens killing a mortal (human being) to mean the Lady mantle couldn't kill the fertilized egg/embryo/fetus.  And even if the Lady mantle deemed the egg/embryo/fetus as killable, it doesn't mean it is required to do so.

[raidem]

how the mantle would be destroyed I wish to refute entirely

I never meant to say that the Lady mantle's power becomes nonexistent.  Like Mother Winter said and you referred to, Einstein has the equation E=mc^2.  Energy changes form and isn't destroyed so to would occur with the mantle.  That said, we have Mab's words to contend with.

This is why I ask about the nebulous nature of your theories. When one point is made against them(that the knight actually could take the Lady.. or that the separation of the lady from the queens power was taking place in CD) they simply change that bit while resisting the original premise from being faulty. It's like fighting the Dark Arts professor Snape! Argue(debate, whichever you prefer) this one with me now, here, without avoiding points you don't like in favor of 'how you can make it work' for you. That just sits too close to fitting facts to suite the theory for me. Your making assumptions on when and how the mantle would be destroyed I wish to refute entirely.

I've addressed most of this already I think.  I recopied it and replying to it to say that it is an approach I'm taking to have more eyeballs and brains consider issues that I'm considering.  I think my ideas are better for it if I ask people what they think and how would this work. Then I see if I like it and it fits with how I view things.  People suggested that the Lady mantle kills off the fertilized egg/embryo/fetus if it could get to that point.  It was an idea that didn't fit well with me, so I suggested that either it had passed through the mantles defenses or was a special case because of a knight.  So, there are these ideas that wouldn't have come to me if I hadn't asked people to play with some of the setups I had created.  I think most know these setups/contraptions are geared to my Murphy/Mab theory and they participate with me even if they don't agree with or find merit in the theory.  I like their input nevertheless, as well as yours.

[raidem]

Her throat. I had wanted it for something, I thought. But now I just wanted. That would be how to do it. Set my teeth on her throat while I took her. If she struggled—or didn’t struggle enough—I would be able to start ripping my way toward the blood. “This is how it is supposed to be,” Maeve purred. “Knight and Lady, together. Fucking like animals. Taking what we please.” Her mouth turned up into a smile. “I thought you’d never let it in. Let it in deep, where I could touch.” Her lovely face took on a feigned, youthful innocence. “But I can touch it now, can’t I?” I growled. I’d forgotten how to do whatever that other thing was. All I could think about was the need. Claim her as a mate. Take whatever I pleased from her. Make her mine. Except . . . Wait.

This is evidence to support the idea that the Knight can in fact have sex with the Lady. Or in the case Maeve was lying...

[peregrine]

Maeve lying about something like that I could easily see.  The Mantle pushing Harry for it, either it thinks it can get away with it, or is functioning at such a base level doesn't bother thinking about anything more than what it wants, regardless of what it knows it can have.

On a related note, does the Mantle ever make Harry start thinking that way about Mab?  I'd think she would be one of the targets for those kinds of urges as well.  Knock her down a peg, as it were.

[raidem]

I've argued that in Skin Game the dream where Harry has sex with Murphy is Harry tapping into Mab's dream or connection with her.  That dream follows Harry's dream with Molly.

It's also a hint that Murphy=Mab.

[peregrine]

"I've argued a thing" doesn't really provide evidence that it's true.  It's not like Harry doesn't have desires towards Murphy that are unrelated entirely to her possibly being Mab.  Especially because the rest of that dream, as I recall, is without the rape/murder/dominate urges that the Mantle gives, so it's not really relevant to whether or not the Mantle looks at Mab the way it looks at Maeve.  Or even at Murphy.