Queen Succession Rules

[Cozarkian]

In CD Mab explains Harry shouldn't kill her because Molly will have enough difficulty with the Lady mantle without being handed hers. Cold Case shows us the Lady mantle strives to prevent conception, rather than just forcing miscarriages. The above suggests that the definition of Mother requires conception, not birth. Likely, the Lady conceives around the time she gets the Queen mantle.

Personally, I think the Queen mantle jumps to the WK and drives the WK to have sex with the Lady. The act of consumation passes the Queen mantle to the Lady and drives the Lady mantle out.  This would mean when Mab indicated Harry would be handing Molly her mantle, she meant that literally, not figuratively.

That is why sex was part of the ritual for Mab to make Harry the WK, because it is a tribute to the ritual that the WK makes the Queen.

The other question is whether the WK can always have sex with the Lady (which would add a new twist to why Marve put some much effort into seducing Harry in CD) or whether he needs the Queen mantle to overcome the defenses.

The above preserves the rule of Maiden/Mother while cleanly allowing the transfer of the mantle down the line.

[raidem]

In CD Mab explains Harry shouldn't kill her because Molly will have enough difficulty with the Lady mantle without being handed hers.

It's clear that the Lady can become Queen without being a mother.  I'm not arguing that one at all.  I'm just arguing the case regarding the Mother.

Cold Case shows us the Lady mantle strives to prevent conception, rather than just forcing miscarriages. The above suggests that the definition of Mother requires conception, not birth. Likely, the Lady conceives around the time she gets the Queen mantle.

I don't think the mantle could force a miscarriage that would probably be against the 'law.'  I think the defense mechanism is against sex to prevent conception, sex isn't the point at which the mantle is destroyed.  That point is a bit further down the road as to what constitutes 'motherhood' of which I'm not sure what exactly that means regarding birth or just conception? 

So, what do you guys think?  Is the point at which the Lady mantle is unmade, as defined by 'motherhood,' conception or birth?

Let's clear something up.  Capital Mother refers to say Mother Summer or Winter or their mantles, lowercase mother refers to simply being a mother.  Maybe I should go with MOTHER for the Mother mantles or titles instead.  Queen refers only to the Mab, Titania position.  Oh, I see where some of the confusion might be coming from, Mab's quote regarding the law or at least when she is talking about it says "Maiden, Mother, Crone."  This has the titles different than the Queen titles Lady, Queen, Mother.  So, again I'm suggesting the Maiden could never be a mother until she acquired the Mother mantle.  The Mother could never be a Crone until she actually was a mother.  So as long as those conditions existed within the regular succession rules the argument is largely irrelevant as it's a normal case.  In case of a abnormal case in which the Mother/Queen (Mab or Titania) isn't a mother then the Crone mantle may seek out one who is.

[Quantus]

I suspect it to be fuzzily defined, shifting with the common social outlook and the Nature of Magic, which could be why the Mantle seems to be taking safety-minded approach of protecting against the most conservative/restrictive definition to be safe.  Thus if it prevents the Act itself then it can be certain of preventing all other questionable circumstances, rather than having to adjust itself (fundamentally anti-Winter, that) to the evolving nature of Magic that seems to experience cyclic changes every few centuries. 

Fwiw, if this is true then I suspect Summer's Lady Mantle operates with a bit more finesse.

[Arjan]

That really isn't the comment to be quoted from though I get your point but it addresses other statements I have made other than that one.

Again I argue otherwise, I think the Mother mantle requires one to be a mother.  I mean her title is MOTHER Summer or Winter, I think that means something regarding the mantle.  If you can't meet that requirement then you're not eligible despite teh Lady=>Queen=>Mother rule. I think that succession rule is in effect as long as the proper conditions are satisfied whereby Lady!=a mother and Mother=mother. It hasn't been spelled out but I believe we will find out later there is a particular rule regarding the Mother mantle similar to how we found out there was a particular rule regarding the Lady mantle.
This is what I argue would happen.  And what I argue would happen to the Mother mantle should the Queen not be a mother.  The Lady is inherently prohibited from being a mother as that would be an instance in which the mantle would be destroyed.  It's a complication outside the generic rules we know of so far.  We have precedent though whereby the mantles aren't funneled through the Lady, namely the time when they were created.

But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.

[groinkick]

But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.

It's been inferred that Molly would become Queen.  Leah is second to Mab.  She's cunning, dangerous, and ambitious.  Don't be shocked if Leah has plans to get Mab's Mantle.

[Arjan]

It's been inferred that Molly would become Queen.  Leah is second to Mab.  She's cunning, dangerous, and ambitious.  Don't be shocked if Leah has plans to get Mab's Mantle.

I used the names to make it more clear but the same thing happened when Mab became queen of course.

[groinkick]

I used the names to make it more clear but the same thing happened when Mab became queen of course.

Yes that's the traditional way it goes.  However there are probably other ways.  For example Sidhe go out on Halloween to gather more power.  If Leah for example killed Mab, in my opinion she'd probably get that power because she would have displayed that she deserved it, by taking it. 

Also Mab may have been the one to kill the previous Queen, earning the Mantle.  I don't recall if it's been said how exactly she got it.  Maeve planned on taking the Mantle from Mab.

[Arjan]

Yes that's the traditional way it goes.  However there are probably other ways.  For example Sidhe go out on Halloween to gather more power.  If Leah for example killed Mab, in my opinion she'd probably get that power because she would have displayed that she deserved it, by taking it. 

Also Mab may have been the one to kill the previous Queen, earning the Mantle.  I don't recall if it's been said how exactly she got it.  Maeve planned on taking the Mantle from Mab.

The point is no complicated constructions with pregnant ladies before they become mother protected by the queens mantle or whatever needed. The standard method works.

[jonas]

the Lady conceives around the time she gets the Queen mantle.
is why sex was part of the ritual for Mab to make Harry the WK, because it is a tribute to the ritual that the WK makes the Queen.

And i'd bet part of the ceremony for taking the queens mantle is the WK takes you again. That the Knight's mantle was basically reborn through sex is telling, so is the fact Harry as WK knows he's physically stronger than the Lady and the Lady's defensive measures are purely a physical reaction, not magical per say. So the Queen is the queen because she's done it with the Knight(high technicality, the WK mantle is what was birthed there in the first place)... and the Mother is the Mother because their 'knight' gets birthed into reality as it's own source, no longer based upon reflecting the queen.(see Kringle, Gatekeeper, ect)

[raidem]

But another thing has been spelled out. If Mab dies Molly gets the queens mantle and shou can not be a mother at that moment.

Agreed.
This doesn't touch upon the Mother mantles which I've largely been arguing about.  Simply put, the Mother mantels as in Mother Winter Mother Summer and not the lower queens of which you are referring to, require their holder to be a mother. This is symmetric with the lady mantels that require their holder to be a nonmother.

[raidem]

The point is no complicated constructions with pregnant ladies before they become mother protected by the queens mantle or whatever needed. The standard method works.

This point was to test how far a lady could go before her mantle was unmade.  The unmade moment is defined by mab to be for the lady to be a mother, which is why I asked at what point did it begin:birth or conception.

The next point was to assert a restriction upon the Mother summer/winter mantle to obtain an actual mother.  The queen mantle wouldn't have any such restriction as she is a bridge between two mutually exclusive states. (I argue)

Final point is to attempt to insert a Murphy pregnancy in a time travel plot to see if that could still qualify her as a lady, a nonmother, at least up until she gave birth. 

I like groinkick suggestion.

[Arjan]

Agreed.
This doesn't touch upon the Mother mantles which I've largely been arguing about.  Simply put, the Mother mantels as in Mother Winter Mother Summer and not the lower queens of which you are referring to, require their holder to be a mother. This is symmetric with the lady mantels that require their holder to be a nonmother.

There is probably some confusion here because Mab is a mother but not the mother and I do not refer to the mothers as queens.

I do not think the prerequisites are that strict. It is not clear if Molly was a virgin at cold days but she probably was. But whatever she was she certainly is now, it is magic.

[Arjan]

This point was to test how far a lady could go before her mantle was unmade.  The unmade moment is defined by mab to be for the lady to be a mother, which is why I asked at what point did it begin:birth or conception.

The next point was to assert a restriction upon the Mother summer/winter mantle to obtain an actual mother.  The queen mantle wouldn't have any such restriction as she is a bridge between two mutually exclusive states. (I argue)

Final point is to attempt to insert a Murphy pregnancy in a time travel plot to see if that could still qualify her as a lady, a nonmother, at least up until she gave birth. 

I like groinkick suggestion.

The mantle would recognise a pregnacy and it would be one of the many reasons not to consider her a suitable host. And if somehow forced to take a pregnant Murphy as a host considering the violent nature of the mantle and the pre christian ethics of the thing in general I think a miscarriage would be the next step.

If the host is not suitable the mantle will try to make it so.

[raidem]

Yeah, we got one point out of the way.

Now, I'm focusing on the other point.  If somehow the Lady mantle is allowed to take a pregnant Lady (not considered mother yet) I don't think the mantle would take action against the fetus as that would probably violate the prohibition regarding the Queens not killing mortals.  I see the defense mechanism depicted in Molly's encounter with Ramirez as the first defense mechanism we've seen. If somehow it gets bypassed, and the mantle isn't destroyed by the Lady becoming just short of a operative definition of 'mother', then I think the pregnancy would get inside the mantles defenses such that it couldn't touch it.  The mantle would then push the Lady toward becoming Queen at all costs.  It wins either way by having the Lady vacate its mantle.  Lady dies in attempt, Lady mantle passes.  Lady becomes Queen, Lady mantle passes.  Each of which would need to occur before 'birth' if that is the definition of 'mother.' This is entirely mute however if conception is considered adequate by the mantle to be a 'mother.'  This then would allow for possible sex between the Lady and another with the exception that if such a conception occurred as a result, fulfilling the 'mother' definition, this would then destroy the Lady mantle.

In short, I'd argue the mantle could not cause a miscarriage.  This circumstance, if it hadn't already caused the Lady mantle's destruction, would be inside the mantles defenses and prohibited by law that prevents the Queens from killing mortals.

Now, the question becomes if on the off chance this may be accurate, would it be at all relevant.  That answer at this point is a probable no.  It, in my theories, mainly applies to Murphy and on the chance she TT's into the past pregnant with say Harry's child, who may be Marcone.  All of these Wag's are increasingly unlikely when combined together.  They also require a more complex storyline to back them.

[Cozarkian]

In short, I'd argue the mantle could not cause a miscarriage.  This circumstance, if it hadn't already caused the Lady mantle's destruction, would be inside the mantles defenses and prohibited by law that prevents the Queens from killing mortals.

If a fetus is sufficiently mortal to prevent a queen from killing it, then it is also sufficiently mortal to make the queen a mother.