Queen Succession Rules

[raidem]

Question: in scenario three, assuming the Court structure is simultaneously destroyed, is it possible that the Mantles would revert to the opposing Court's domain? Not to be filled, but for them to administer?

I think in a way Mab was looking out for Titania's interest as well as her own in regard to the Summer Lady and Sarissa.  So, I do think Mother Winter could arrange a safeguarding role for Summer until it got it's footing in such a drastic case. 

[jonas]

See, I disagree here.  I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother.  I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles.  If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt. 

So, I favor the following:

I've seen that the set up is akin to a mix of Hecate and The divine trinity and the (iirc) Norse version of the fates. Actually, where in we have the son(daughter)(future), Father(Queen actually)(present) and Holy Spirit(now Mother)(past). The SK descriptions of them are much more accurate in that way.

[Arjan]

See, I disagree here.  I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother.  I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles.  If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt. 

So, I favor the following:

Then we are in a world of hurt every time a lady becomes mother. It is far more likely that as soon as the lady becomes queen she starts procreating.

Think what motivation that gave Maeve.

[wardenferry419]

Does anyone think that may have happened around the Battle of Hastings thing when a starborn was running around?

[Arjan]

Does anyone think that may have happened around the Battle of Hastings thing when a starborn was running around?

IIRC there was some woj about some love triangle between Oberon, Titania and Mab. If that was just after they both became Queens with a very high procreation drive and the usual possessiveness and jealousy in overdrive for magical beings then the result would have been spectacular.

[Quantus]

IIRC there was some woj about some love triangle between Oberon, Titania and Mab. If that was just after they both became Queens with a very high procreation drive and the usual possessiveness and jealousy in overdrive for magical beings then the result would have been spectacular.

That was specifically "back around Shakespeare's Day" so it would have been several centuries later. 

[Cozarkian]

See, I disagree here.  I think the Mother 'should' be at least a real life mother.  I think that is one of the bedrock principles for the Mother Mantles.  If a Lady happens to find herself in the Mother position without being a mother, I think we are in a world of hurt. 

So, I favor the following:

If the Lady becomes a mother while she is still Lady (before getting the Queen Mother mantle)

(click to show/hide)

it destroys the Lady mantle

, so the text would disagree with you.

Now, it is possible that all 3 mantles go to the nearest suitable vessel and the reason it would have gone to Molly if Harry killed Mab on DR is because Molly was he nearest, not because she was the Lady. I doubt that, but it is possible.

[raidem]

No, the text doesn't disagree with me as there are 'if' and 'should' qualifiers being used by me and same 'if' and 'before' qualifiers with you.  The text never really had such qualifiers so there is ambiguity in text that could allow wrinkles that we aren't quite expecting.  We also have WOJL from Jim that suggest the succession rules are as written until he writes then otherwise so I think we should anticipate curveballs within the 'general' rules. 

As to your point about Lady becoming a mother destroying the mantle prior to her ascending, yes that is spelled out but I didn't dispute that within the statement you quoted.  As you noted in parenthesized aside, there was a suggestion that the Lady could but in doing so she became Queen.  If she didn't become Queen, then yes the mantle would be destroyed.  So, the Lady would have to off the Queen in order to procreate or at least come into the Queen position.  And, we don't know exactly where the prohibition lies.  We know Molly can't have sex, but at what point does the mantle get destroyed.  Is it at sex, at conception, at having birth.  I mean we know the defense mechanism arises at the sex stage but if you can somehow bypass that...

I think I need to see the exact language Mab used in Molly's short story.

[Cozarkian]

There seemed to be the suggestion though that the Lady could but in doing so she became Queen.  If she didn't become Queen, then yes the mantle would be destroyed.  So, the Lady would have to off the Queen in order to procreate.  And, we don't know exactly where the prohibition lies.  We know Molly can't have sex, but at what point does the mantle get destroyed.  Is it at sex, at conception, at having birth.  I mean we know the defense mechanism arises at the sex stage but if you can somehow bypass that...

I think I need to see the exact language Mab used in Molly's short story.

If the Lady offs the Queen so she can proceate, what do you think the Queen mantle does while waiting for the Lady to do so?

I think the presence of the Queen mantle in the Lady is necessary for the Lady to procreate. As a stronger mantle , it can override the Lady mantle defenses and push the Lady mantle out at the exact moment of conception.

When Mother Summer abdicated, do you really envision that she had to coordinate with the Queen and Lady to make sure the Lady became a mother at the precise moment of abdication?

[raidem]

Just amended the prior comment so read that again as I finished posting it to correct anything before I finally published it.

If the Lady offs the Queen so she can proceate, what do you think the Queen mantle does while waiting for the Lady to do so?

"Three Queens of Summer; three Queens of Winter," she said, that alien gaze returning to me.  "Maiden, Mother, and Crone.  You are the Maiden, Lady Molly.  And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear."  The mantle protected itself--as it must.
"What?" 
She tilted her head and stared at me.  "It is all within the law.  I suggest you spend a few hours each daymeditating on it in the future. In time you will gain and adequate understanding of your limits."

So, the literal and precise point at which the mantle would be destroyed is for the Lady to become a mother.  If the Lady can become Queen up to immediately prior to giving birth by the Queen dying by the Lady's hand direct, indirect, or neither, then it could be possible to maintain a pregnancy up until the time immediately prior to birth.  She may even be able to overcome the prohibition against sex without destroying the mantle.  To tie this in with my Murphy/Mab pregnant with Marcone or something similar, I could see Murphy gaining the Lady mantle and then having a set point of time in which she'd have to arrange her ascension to Queen, risk destroying the mantle, or giving up the Lady mantle etc before she had her child.

I think the presence of the Queen mantle in the Lady is necessary for the Lady to procreate. As a stronger mantle , it can override the Lady mantle defenses and push the Lady mantle out at the exact moment of conception.

I think the it's absolutely necessary for the Lady to acquire the Queen mantle to give birth.  At which point the Lady is considered a mother by the mantle and would be subsequently destroyed is the pivotal question.

When Mother Summer abdicated, do you really envision that she had to coordinate with the Queen and Lady to make sure the Lady became a mother at the precise moment of abdication?

See this is where you have my words and their meaning confused.  I said the Queen should need to be a mother prior to assuming the Mother mantle (the part where I suggest the Lady being a mother I'm talking about the case whereby all three Queen mantles are up for grabs and a Lady could push the mantles up to the Queen, but the Mother mantle requires that she be a mother).  I didn't say she needed to be a mother to be the Queen.  I think the Mother mantle is one such mantle that in an extenuating circumstance in which the succession is not a mother then the mantle may jump ship to reach out to a vessel that is.  This is me thinking 'should' not 'would' type argument.  Again, I'm arguing a case whereby how it is spelled out within the "law" differs from how we view the 'rules' to be considering fae speak by the Queens and by Jim and less than accurate first person views of those participating within the books.

I think I should talk a bit more about that special case where I think a Mother mantle needs to go to an actual mother.  If there is such a rule then it appears that a Lady would never be able to pick up the Mother mantle as the Lady may never be a mother. She could though if she ever became one.  (It's a bit complex but I like my Mother Winter and Summer to actually be what their title says they are.)

Done

[Arjan]

I do not think you have to be a mother before acquiring the queens mantle. I think the mantle takes care of that, it will push you to become one.

I do not even think you have to be a virgin to get the Lady mantle otherwise Sarissa would have taken steps. Unless her deal with Mab prohibited it of course but even then.

[raidem]

I do not think you have to be a mother before acquiring the queens mantle. I think the mantle takes care of that, it will push you to become one.

The issue isn't to acquire the Queen mantle.  The issue is for a lower Queen to acquire the Mother mantle.  I argue the Mother mantle requires you to be a mother.  And on the time element we are talking about worst case scenario where essentially all three Queen positions are vacant at the same time.  There is no time for mantles to 'take care of that to push you to become one" in the case of pushing you to the Mother position which is what we are largely arguing about.  The Queen mantle really isn't the issue as it's a bridging mantle that gives time to go from one to the other.  But, as I said before, the extreme case in which we are talking about is the filling of the all three Queen positions and in particular the Mother position without having a qualified actual 'mother.'

Look, we have per Mab herself regarding the 'law' with regard to the Lady mantle.  The Lady mantle would never go to a mother nor stay with a mother.   

You are the Maiden, Lady Molly.  And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be destroy the mantle of power you wear."

Balance and symmetry then suggests that the Mother mantle would never go to a non-mother.  This would prevent the Lady from shepherding a candidate to the Mother position in a worst case scenario if the Mother mantle requires the wearer to be a mother.  So this would mean there would be a powerful drive for the Queen to become a mother in case the Mother abdicates, dies.

[raidem]

This is actually sort of reminding me of Jim's other series. 

I mean we have Hive Queens that have conditions set upon them regarding procreation etc.  As to pregnancy and the hero, we have the main character's magical ability stunted and himself camouflaged by his mom so that others don't learn he is the successor to the throne.  This could be similar to my theory on Marcone descending from Murphy/Mab. We find out she gave birth to him and had him placed at a certain place in nevernever that had a different flow of time whereby he'd have an actual present life around the time of his parents.  So, his parents are kept secret, his identity is further complicated by his complex origin in the timeline.  Etc, etc.

That is going a bit off topic but there could be parallels between the Codex Alera series and this one with regard to familial connections, queen succession rules and procreation conditions, etc.

[Arjan]

This is actually sort of reminding me of Jim's other series. 

I mean we have Hive Queens that have conditions set upon them regarding procreation etc.  As to pregnancy and the hero, we have the main character's magical ability stunted and himself camouflaged by his mom so that others don't learn he is the successor to the throne.  This could be similar to my theory on Marcone descending from Murphy/Mab. We find out she gave birth to him and had him placed at a certain place in nevernever that had a different flow of time whereby he'd have an actual present life around the time of his parents.  So, his parents are kept secret, his identity is further complicated by his complex origin in the timeline.  Etc, etc.

That is going a bit off topic but there could be parallels between the Codex Alera series and this one with regard to familial connections, queen succession rules and procreation conditions, etc.

There is an obvious flaw in that. If the mother dies unexpectedly her mantle is taken by the lady who is not a mother at that point. So being a mother is not a prerequisite for the queens mantle, you become one after you get that mantle. There is no need to complicate things.

Changing mantle for the lady is just like growing up and the children will come soon enough.

If all three mantles are free the mantles might look for candidates themselves but it seems more logical that the lady looks for candidates and passes them through. One person would get old pretty fast but she can stay old for quite some time. Until the next crisis.

[raidem]

That really isn't the comment to be quoted from though I get your point but it addresses other statements I have made other than that one.

There is an obvious flaw in that. If the mother dies unexpectedly her mantle is taken by the lady who is not a mother at that point. So being a mother is not a prerequisite for the queens mantle, you become one after you get that mantle. There is no need to complicate things.

Changing mantle for the lady is just like growing up and the children will come soon enough.

If all three mantles are free the mantles might look for candidates themselves but it seems more logical that the lady looks for candidates and passes them through. One person would get old pretty fast but she can stay old for quite some time. Until the next crisis.

Again I argue otherwise, I think the Mother mantle requires one to be a mother.  I mean her title is MOTHER Summer or Winter, I think that means something regarding the mantle.  If you can't meet that requirement then you're not eligible despite teh Lady=>Queen=>Mother rule. I think that succession rule is in effect as long as the proper conditions are satisfied whereby Lady!=a mother and Mother=mother. It hasn't been spelled out but I believe we will find out later there is a particular rule regarding the Mother mantle similar to how we found out there was a particular rule regarding the Lady mantle.

If all three mantles are free the mantles might look for candidates themselves

This is what I argue would happen.  And what I argue would happen to the Mother mantle should the Queen not be a mother.  The Lady is inherently prohibited from being a mother as that would be an instance in which the mantle would be destroyed.  It's a complication outside the generic rules we know of so far.  We have precedent though whereby the mantles aren't funneled through the Lady, namely the time when they were created.